Question for atheists...
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20-03-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:42 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 09:28 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I can feel it's pull. I perceive it every time I walk, lift a bag of groceries, jump to reach a high shelf or crash on my mountain bike.

No I'm not saying that perception is the only way to determine that something exists. I've already said that we are not limited to the perceptual level of consciousness. We also have reason. And yes I do believe the pyramids exist.
I am not trying to make any assertions here. Only trying to understand your logic.
I am assuming based on your last response that you also believe in things, in some cases, without actual sensual perception, such as the pyramids. Am I correct?
How are you able to prove that the Pyramids exist?
Is it safe to use this same logic if I try to prove that god exists?

This is a potential good stepping stone from what I was saying in this thread before you didn't respond to.

Because I don't understand your logic. Or your proclaimed logic which just doesn't seem consistent to my interpretation.

What do you mean by without actual sensory data of the pyramids? Do you think several people here don't have sensory data of the pyramids? I think most do, in fact I'm getting sensory data of the great pyramid of giza as I write this. I'm taking it in with my eyes as I type.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-03-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:18 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If someone personally experienced the presence of some unseen force each time they prayed would that be sufficient to determine said unseen force's existence?
Do you believe the Pryramids exist?

I see that I missed this and I wanted to respond. By "unseen" I'm assuming that you are referring to the sense of sight. A mistake that many people make it to forget that we have other senses besides sight. I would have to know by what means someone perceives this "unseen" force before I can answer. How does the person perceiving this force distinguish it from something they are merely imagining or misinterpreting?

And AgnosticShane, I am certain that the pyramids exist even though I've never seen them directly. And I'm certain that the Christian God does not exist.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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20-03-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(20-03-2016 07:28 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 09:42 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I am not trying to make any assertions here. Only trying to understand your logic.
I am assuming based on your last response that you also believe in things, in some cases, without actual sensual perception, such as the pyramids. Am I correct?
How are you able to prove that the Pyramids exist?
Is it safe to use this same logic if I try to prove that god exists?

This is a potential good stepping stone from what I was saying in this thread before you didn't respond to.

Because I don't understand your logic. Or your proclaimed logic which just doesn't seem consistent to my interpretation.

What do you mean by without actual sensory data of the pyramids? Do you think several people here don't have sensory data of the pyramids? I think most do, in fact I'm getting sensory data of the great pyramid of giza as I write this. I'm taking it in with my eyes as I type.
I understand the misunderstanding (I think)
The word actual should be replaced with direct.
Does that help?
My apologies.
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20-03-2016, 09:16 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(20-03-2016 09:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 09:18 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If someone personally experienced the presence of some unseen force each time they prayed would that be sufficient to determine said unseen force's existence?
Do you believe the Pryramids exist?

I see that I missed this and I wanted to respond. By "unseen" I'm assuming that you are referring to the sense of sight. A mistake that many people make it to forget that we have other senses besides sight. I would have to know by what means someone perceives this "unseen" force before I can answer. How does the person perceiving this force distinguish it from something they are merely imagining or misinterpreting?

And AgnosticShane, I am certain that the pyramids exist even though I've never seen them directly. And I'm certain that the Christian God does not exist.
Is your certainty that the pyramids exist regardless of you directly observing them (assuming that you never observed them directly) a belief?
Is your certainty that God does not exist a belief considering that you do not possess omniscience (assuming that you don't possess it)?

If they are both beliefs which one would be more rational?

I would also like to discuss the phrase "a lack of a belief is not a belief" if you would be willing to bring it up in your next reply.
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20-03-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(20-03-2016 09:16 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(20-03-2016 09:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I see that I missed this and I wanted to respond. By "unseen" I'm assuming that you are referring to the sense of sight. A mistake that many people make it to forget that we have other senses besides sight. I would have to know by what means someone perceives this "unseen" force before I can answer. How does the person perceiving this force distinguish it from something they are merely imagining or misinterpreting?

And AgnosticShane, I am certain that the pyramids exist even though I've never seen them directly. And I'm certain that the Christian God does not exist.
Is your certainty that the pyramids exist regardless of you directly observing them (assuming that you never observed them directly) a belief?
Is your certainty that God does not exist a belief considering that you do not possess omniscience (assuming that you don't possess it)?

If they are both beliefs which one would be more rational?

I would also like to discuss the phrase "a lack of a belief is not a belief" if you would be willing to bring it up in your next reply.
On my view Shane, belief is the degree of confidence one has that a proposition is true. It ranges from extremely tentative all the way up to near certainty, based on the available evidence. When I say I'm certain I mean that I no longer believe but know that a proposition is true.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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20-03-2016, 09:50 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(20-03-2016 09:16 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(20-03-2016 09:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I see that I missed this and I wanted to respond. By "unseen" I'm assuming that you are referring to the sense of sight. A mistake that many people make it to forget that we have other senses besides sight. I would have to know by what means someone perceives this "unseen" force before I can answer. How does the person perceiving this force distinguish it from something they are merely imagining or misinterpreting?

And AgnosticShane, I am certain that the pyramids exist even though I've never seen them directly. And I'm certain that the Christian God does not exist.
Is your certainty that the pyramids exist regardless of you directly observing them (assuming that you never observed them directly) a belief?
Is your certainty that God does not exist a belief considering that you do not possess omniscience (assuming that you don't possess it)?

If they are both beliefs which one would be more rational?

I would also like to discuss the phrase "a lack of a belief is not a belief" if you would be willing to bring it up in your next reply.

Ask yourself how you know I'm not omniscient Shane. The way you know this is the same way I know that the pyramids exist and that God does not. The method is reason.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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20-03-2016, 10:08 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 05:28 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  The biggest flaw in intelligent design is you are looking at it backwards. You see something complex and think, how could this come to be without a plan? If you look at it correctly you will see that this planet did create us and we are bound do it, we can't live on any other planet right?

Simple task; Go in a lab and create a fully functional human eyeball from scratch. Can you do that? No, you can't. You are an intelligent human being, with vision, correct? So why can't you go in a lab and create a fully functional eyeball?

Yet, a mindless process..a blind process (nature) was able to create not only one eyeball, but two. It didn't know what it was doing, and it didn't SEE what it was doing, yet...it did it?

Yet, you can't do it? If you don't see the faith it takes to believe that, I don't know what to tell you.

(19-03-2016 05:28 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I mean if God wanted us to live in this universe he certainly made it difficult for us to ever live or hope to survive anywhere else.

Why would we need to?

(19-03-2016 05:28 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  We are genetically associated with all other living beings, we even share DNA with plants.

We all share a common designer, don't we?

(19-03-2016 05:28 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  The theory of evolution with it's laws simply state that with enough time any simple living thing can and will become more and more complex and adapted to it's environment, it's not difficult to understand we are the product of billions of years of gradual change, we didn't just appear out of nowhere fully formed and "designed".

"with enough time any simple living thing can and will become more and more complex and adapted to its environment".

Sure, change on a micro-level...if every living organism on this planet disappeared EXCEPT dogs....a billion years later, there will be many different varieties of dogs over those billion years..but they will all be DOGS...they will all be the same "kind" of animal, no matter how much time passes.

The evolutionist wants to believe that over these billions of years, the dogs that was started off with would have become different "kinds" of animals...such as the whole "reptile-bird" thing.

That is unscientific nonsense. It is voodoo science. It is not supported.

(19-03-2016 05:28 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  We are certainly not that intelligently designed anyway, what designer would use one tube in the body for breathing and eating/drinking? Thousands of people die every year from choking, not very smart and that's only one of literally millions of examples of the poor design of not only our bodies but the entire planet, I mean seriously it's mostly water which we can't live in and we can't drink , you would think any creator put us here just to kill us.

Oh, stop it. Yeah, who put the one tube that we DO have for breathing, eating, and drinking? Who put that tube in our bodies? Who put the digestive system in our body? A mindless and blind process??

Stop the madness. And besides, a "bad" design is still a design, isn't it?

(19-03-2016 05:28 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  All the ingredients we need to be made on this planet exist, there is literally nothing about us that is so magical and special that only a metaphysical being could've made us.

Then you should have no problem going in a lab and creating those eyeballs, should you?

(19-03-2016 05:28 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Are humans not "natural"? We most certainly are and even if there are some mysteries about the nature of life simply stating "God did it." isn't an answer, you may as well say "A wizard did it."

Saying "God did it" is no LESS of an answer than you telling me that "Nature did it". At least my explanation of who did it has intelligence. Your explanation doesn't have any intelligence. Your explanation can't think or see, yet it "placed" into your body specific parts, each part which has a function (lungs, heart, brains, intestines, kidneys, liver, pancreas, etc).

Not only did your explanation (this mindless and blind process) CREATE those parts, but it placed those parts inside of your body with PRECISION, every part is conveniently where it needs to "be" in order for the body to function properly. All of the parts just HAPPEN to be the right size and shape to fit inside, too.

All of this precision from a process that can't think or see?? That is what you believe?

Wow. If that is the price of atheism, I will gladly stick to my Christian theism.
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20-03-2016, 10:13 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(20-03-2016 03:43 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  god has failed to meet their burden of proof. Therefore, the god hypothesis is totally rejected until such time as the burden of proof is met. This means that atheists are not on the left of the belief line. It means that they aren't even on the belief line.

The line ain't going nowhere, bruh. I am not here to suit your fancy. If the idea of God upsets you so much that you are not even willing to share the same line with the mere "concept" of God, then that just shows how close-minded you are.

This isn't about burden of proof. You just don't like the idea of God, and you don't want any part of it/him. Plain and simple. No need to sugar coat anything.
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20-03-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(20-03-2016 10:13 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  You just don't like the idea of God, and you don't want any part of it/him.

Girly don't like the idea of God? I AM God.

(20-03-2016 10:13 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Plain and simple. No need to sugar coat anything.

You gonna die and dissolve into the void like everyone and everything else. Plain and simple. No need to sugar coat anything.

#sigh
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20-03-2016, 10:24 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(20-03-2016 06:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  As a lifelong atheist—55 years or more—I have to admit to simply not comprehending how any sane, rational, educated adult could possibly believe in the existence of a mythical god-figure, created by man, over 2,000 years ago.

First off, the shoe fits on both feet. I cannot comprehend how any sane, rational, educated adult can possibly believe that a mindless and blind process can create fully functional human bodies (parts included), especially when man cannot create fully functional human bodies (from scratch).

So again, every single time someone has the audacity to question the sanity of folks who believe in theism, I will just continue to draw parallels between the "insanity" that is needed to believe in theism, and the "insanity" that is needed to believe in naturalism.

Because apparently, the idea is "our naturalistic worldview makes so much damn sense, and the theistic worldview is so damn nonsensical".

And in my opinion, nothing can be further from the truth.

(20-03-2016 06:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  And why do Christians choose not to believe in the existence of other ancient gods? What about Ganesha, Coatlicue, Hades, Si-wang-mu, Odin, or even Allah?

Um, because Christianity is a monotheistic religion.

(20-03-2016 06:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Apparently you choose to deny the existence of around 20,000 other gods?

Because I actually have evidence that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and last I checked, with evidence comes confirmation....I don't have any such evidence for any other gods, therefore, I have no reasons to believe in them.

Now of course, if you have evidence of these other gods, then by all means...

(20-03-2016 06:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  The major difference then between me, as an atheist, and you CotW as a Christian, is that I believe in one less god than do you. That's all ultimately.

And?
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