Question for atheists...
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24-03-2016, 06:38 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(24-03-2016 05:27 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Are you saying he's unintelligently processing it (due to inadequate methodology / lacking some thinking tools) and then rejecting it or that he lacks the ability to process it at all?

If the latter, then it's more to do with input-interface than the processing ability.

Consider

I guess it doesn't matter much as the device is faulty and perhaps should be replaced if it is beyond economic repair ... which in this case, it seems to be.

For I = 1 to N

IF New_Input(N) = Religion
If New_Input(N) Not = Old_Input
Then Ignore
Else Old_Input = Old_Input + New_Input(N)
Else Old_Input = Old_Input + New_Input(N)

Next N

Stop Run

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24-03-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(23-03-2016 04:09 PM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 03:38 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  [quote='god has no twitter account' pid='967082' dateline='1458747641']
I don't have enough faith to be an atheist, sorry. You have more faith then me, apparently.

Commonsensei - I have to object. I didn't write the above - CotW did.

Opps. Editing error.

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24-03-2016, 09:27 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  "If life never existed, it could never have evolved" is true, but trivial and tautological. It does not serve to make any point whatsoever, but it is at least correct.

Not only "does it not serve to make any point whatsoever", but it is also irrelevant, because I never said that.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  "If abiogenesis didn't happen, evolution can't happen", on the other hand, remains false, as evolution could still happen even if a god were responsible for creating life.

First off, you of all people should know that I already grant the notion that evolution is possible with divine intervention. No shit. But we are not talking about theistic-evolution, we are talking about YOUR view and the notion that evolution occurs WITHOUT divine intervention.

This is noticably the most you've mentioned the "God Hypothesis" because you know the implications of the question that I am asking and you want to keep your religion (evolution) alive, and you need a mechanism to do so. And after you admit that naturalistic evolution is impossible without abiogenesis being possible, you are simply stuck with the God Hypothesis, which is why you keep mentioning it DESPITE the fact that it is something we both agree on (and has no relevance to your world view, which is evolution WITHOUT GOD).

I already know your game, and I watch it unfold, bruh.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  At best, your question is incomplete, and should read "if abiogenesis is false, and no god exists, and accepting for the sake of argument that there is no other explanation for life existing, how can evolution be true?"

Um, if no God exists, then abiogenesis would have to be true. In this case (just for arguments sake), instead of using "God", we will just use "intelligent design"...if there is no intelligent designer, then abiogenesis would have to be true. Otherwise, how else in the hell would you explain the origins of life.

There aren't a million different options...either intelligent design, or nature. If you have a third option, then please enlighten me. There are no options that don't fall under the intelligent design umbrella, or the nature umbrella.

But since you are the smart one, and I am the dumb one, enlighten me on the third option, sir.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  at which point the answer is "it can't, but it doesn't matter because this situation is a pointless hypothetical that has no bearing on actual reality, and is due to the tautological inability of an object to do anything if it doesn't exist rather than an actual flaw with evolution".

Oh, so you just admit that evolution can't be true if abiogenesis isn't true...and then you went on to beg the question in favor of naturalism by blankly stating that the existence of God is just a "pointless hypothetical" and that God cant do anything if he doesn't exist.

Theoretically speaking, you are correct...however, you are just making assumptions because after all, it isn't like you can actually PROVE or offer any kind of argumentation for the non-existence of God.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  And even then, it would still be better phrased as "...how can evolution happen?" or "...how can life exist?", because evolution is still, whether you like it or not, only tangentially related.

So let me ask you this. Since you don't believe in God/intelligent design...please answer the following question: Is it possible for abiogenesis to be false?

This question is soooo powerful, that I can tell that it is a trick question...and by "trick question" I mean that it doesn't matter whether you answer "yes" or "no", you are screwed either way.

So in other words, I am letting you know it is one of those "gotcha" questions, and you STILL cannot prepare for it Laugh out load

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  This is still wrong. Life could still evolve if there was a supernatural mechanism which brought it into existence - say, the god that you keep trying to argue for.

Just like I mentioned above, now it is ok for you to use the God Hypothesis when you are boxed in the corner Laugh out load You do not believe in God, so there is no need in appealing to divine intervention, unless you want evolution to be true THAT bad.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  I really don't know how this still confuses you - or, perhaps, why you just refuse to accept it. I am actually helping you here. The corrections I have supplied make your argument stronger (albeit only marginally, because even the corrected version is a non-starter).

The winning person does not need to be corrected, sir.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You haven't actually done any research whatsoever on abiogenesis and biochemistry, have you? Literally all evidence we have - I repeat, without hyperbole, all evidence - about the nature of life points to abiogenesis not only being possible, but a reality.

Oh, please provide evidence that someone went to a lab and creating life from nonliving material. I will wait.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Your only possible recourse here is to fall back on "but you haven't done it yet!", which is fallacious for a number of reasons that have been explained to you previously. Even assuming that humanity never gains the ability to create life, this would not be any sort of valid objection to abiogenesis as a theory.

Give me one scientific reason why we are to believe that life can originate from nonliving material.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No, because the validity of the theory of evolution (and the demonstrable invalidity of intelligent design) is not dependent on abiogenesis.

If atheist (your view) is true, then evolution IS dependent on abiogenesis. Laugh out load You are saying "Well, evolution could still be true, even if God did it"...but if God did it, then atheism would be FALSE? Your job is to avoid that hypothesis at all costs, so you are just left with....abiogenesis...and that is EXACTLY what COULD be false!!

You are in a no-winning situation, son.
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24-03-2016, 10:13 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
I am quite amazed that we have a 60 page discussion about an argument as terribly flawed as this one.
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24-03-2016, 10:38 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(24-03-2016 10:13 AM)ohio_drg Wrote:  I am quite amazed that we have a 60 page discussion about an argument as terribly flawed as this one.

Which is also a discussion that you contributed to.
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24-03-2016, 10:39 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(23-03-2016 05:16 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Didn't write it for him, but for those that read the thread, and especially the "guests" who perhaps sit on the fence, and lurk, read...and ponder. Thumbsup

I've already smashed that thread, bruh. That stuff is old news.
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24-03-2016, 10:47 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(24-03-2016 09:27 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  "If life never existed, it could never have evolved" is true, but trivial and tautological. It does not serve to make any point whatsoever, but it is at least correct.

Not only "does it not serve to make any point whatsoever", but it is also irrelevant, because I never said that.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  "If abiogenesis didn't happen, evolution can't happen", on the other hand, remains false, as evolution could still happen even if a god were responsible for creating life.

First off, you of all people should know that I already grant the notion that evolution is possible with divine intervention. No shit. But we are not talking about theistic-evolution, we are talking about YOUR view and the notion that evolution occurs WITHOUT divine intervention.

This is noticably the most you've mentioned the "God Hypothesis" because you know the implications of the question that I am asking and you want to keep your religion (evolution) alive, and you need a mechanism to do so. And after you admit that naturalistic evolution is impossible without abiogenesis being possible, you are simply stuck with the God Hypothesis, which is why you keep mentioning it DESPITE the fact that it is something we both agree on (and has no relevance to your world view, which is evolution WITHOUT GOD).

I already know your game, and I watch it unfold, bruh.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  At best, your question is incomplete, and should read "if abiogenesis is false, and no god exists, and accepting for the sake of argument that there is no other explanation for life existing, how can evolution be true?"

Um, if no God exists, then abiogenesis would have to be true. In this case (just for arguments sake), instead of using "God", we will just use "intelligent design"...if there is no intelligent designer, then abiogenesis would have to be true. Otherwise, how else in the hell would you explain the origins of life.

There aren't a million different options...either intelligent design, or nature. If you have a third option, then please enlighten me. There are no options that don't fall under the intelligent design umbrella, or the nature umbrella.

But since you are the smart one, and I am the dumb one, enlighten me on the third option, sir.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  at which point the answer is "it can't, but it doesn't matter because this situation is a pointless hypothetical that has no bearing on actual reality, and is due to the tautological inability of an object to do anything if it doesn't exist rather than an actual flaw with evolution".

Oh, so you just admit that evolution can't be true if abiogenesis isn't true...and then you went on to beg the question in favor of naturalism by blankly stating that the existence of God is just a "pointless hypothetical" and that God cant do anything if he doesn't exist.

Theoretically speaking, you are correct...however, you are just making assumptions because after all, it isn't like you can actually PROVE or offer any kind of argumentation for the non-existence of God.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  And even then, it would still be better phrased as "...how can evolution happen?" or "...how can life exist?", because evolution is still, whether you like it or not, only tangentially related.

So let me ask you this. Since you don't believe in God/intelligent design...please answer the following question: Is it possible for abiogenesis to be false?

This question is soooo powerful, that I can tell that it is a trick question...and by "trick question" I mean that it doesn't matter whether you answer "yes" or "no", you are screwed either way.

So in other words, I am letting you know it is one of those "gotcha" questions, and you STILL cannot prepare for it Laugh out load

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  This is still wrong. Life could still evolve if there was a supernatural mechanism which brought it into existence - say, the god that you keep trying to argue for.

Just like I mentioned above, now it is ok for you to use the God Hypothesis when you are boxed in the corner Laugh out load You do not believe in God, so there is no need in appealing to divine intervention, unless you want evolution to be true THAT bad.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  I really don't know how this still confuses you - or, perhaps, why you just refuse to accept it. I am actually helping you here. The corrections I have supplied make your argument stronger (albeit only marginally, because even the corrected version is a non-starter).

The winning person does not need to be corrected, sir.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You haven't actually done any research whatsoever on abiogenesis and biochemistry, have you? Literally all evidence we have - I repeat, without hyperbole, all evidence - about the nature of life points to abiogenesis not only being possible, but a reality.

Oh, please provide evidence that someone went to a lab and creating life from nonliving material. I will wait.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Your only possible recourse here is to fall back on "but you haven't done it yet!", which is fallacious for a number of reasons that have been explained to you previously. Even assuming that humanity never gains the ability to create life, this would not be any sort of valid objection to abiogenesis as a theory.

Give me one scientific reason why we are to believe that life can originate from nonliving material.

(23-03-2016 12:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No, because the validity of the theory of evolution (and the demonstrable invalidity of intelligent design) is not dependent on abiogenesis.

If atheist (your view) is true, then evolution IS dependent on abiogenesis. Laugh out load You are saying "Well, evolution could still be true, even if God did it"...but if God did it, then atheism would be FALSE? Your job is to avoid that hypothesis at all costs, so you are just left with....abiogenesis...and that is EXACTLY what COULD be false!!

You are in a no-winning situation, son.

Are you wilfully ignoring responses and posts that directly respond to you with a clear cut explanation to why this they MUST be linked view is flawed? Or are answers too many to combat.

It's simple, because of various ideas such as life seeding on earth by aliens, a cosmic force that isn't god causing things such as a karma essence, or this believe some have of holons that is just this guiding force in the universe that trends toward consciousnesses as a higher plane which enacts and forms live in that way.

Neither of these are god claims nor about that view of abiogenesis but they may also believe evolution still.

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24-03-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(23-03-2016 05:13 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Ok Cotw. You can do it here then. What makes your version of Christianity worth following? I will throw in God exists and Jesus is his son for the sake of argument.

Based on what I told you before, you still don't think God/Jesus is worth following?
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24-03-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(24-03-2016 10:39 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 05:16 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Didn't write it for him, but for those that read the thread, and especially the "guests" who perhaps sit on the fence, and lurk, read...and ponder. Thumbsup

I've already smashed that thread, bruh. That stuff is old news.

You *were smashed*, you arrogant ignoramus. You made a fool of yourself.
By all means, continue that here. You are a perfect advertisement for why no one would want to buy into your cultish nonsense.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-03-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(24-03-2016 09:18 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 04:09 PM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Commonsensei - I have to object. I didn't write the above - CotW did.

Opps. Editing error.

You're forgiven.Big Grin

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