Question for atheists...
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19-03-2016, 06:06 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 03:36 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Well, in that case there is insufficient evidence for naturalism, too....yet that doesn't stop most of you from believing in naturalism. There isn't one shred of evidence for naturalism, yet some atheists are willing to throw all of their eggs in that basket.

So you are saying that if your god is not real then reality is not real?

That doesn't even qualify as an argument.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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19-03-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 04:44 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  You only look at things through the lens of your own personal worldview, don't you?


Don't we all? Consider

The point I'm trying to make is that I try to allow myself to view the world through every lens before making one particular view my own, granted this leaves me unsatisfied on a whole plethora of issues, including the issue of whether or not there is a creator, and who and what it might be like if in fact it exists. Yes, it's unsettling at first, but as I expand the number of things I can and should be concerned about, the fact that I'm okay admitting that I just don't know becomes more and more comfortable as I run into more and more people so cock sure that their belief is the only one worth having.

I am, however, quite comfortable dismissing your particular version of this idea despite having believed it for the majority of my time spent conscience here on this rock we call earth. The fact that you have a hard time with that is your problem, I'm doing just fine. Cool

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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19-03-2016, 06:22 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  My question is; Do you really believe that the Christian's belief in God is synonymous to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy?? Because to me, if there was an adult that seriously and earnestly believed in Santa Claus/Tooth Fairy, I would probably think that something is wrong with him/her. I would think "I don't understand how rational human being (adult) could ever believe in such a thing".

Largely. There are three key differences in my mind.

The first is that the god notion is far more slippery than the tooth-fairy or santa claus notion. I stopped believing in Santa at age 6 when, waking up in the middle of night and wanting some water (and forgetting what night it was), I walked into the kitchen to find my mom wrapping presents. I could just as easily have caught an adult slipping a coin under my pillow. It's much, much easier for these beliefs to fall apart because it's much easier to actually spot it being wrong.

Second, for the tooth fairy and santa claus beliefs to be maintained, someone must know they're false and actively work to maintain the deception. They fall apart without someone buying the gifts and labelling them "from Santa". There's no such problem with a god belief.

And third, the cultural expectations surrounding both are significantly different. There's no tremendous peer pressure to believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy. You won't be ostracized by your community or fired from your job for not believing. There is not a dedicated weekly social function with a bunch of people you (somewhat) like to spend time with that hinges on that belief. Society's concepts of patriotism and goodness aren't tied into your belief in Santa. While parental instruction and expectations can and do support both the santa belief and the god belief, your parents eventually expect you to STOP believing in Santa... but will often expect you to keep believing in a god for your whole life.

All of these factors make it much, much harder to reject an unfounded belief in a god than an unfounded belief in Santa or the tooth fairy. So I DO understand how a rational adult can believe such a thing. I can break down the forces and processes and chain of causality that led to them believing such a thing and which keeps them in the belief. I know how the sequence works. It's a bit like watching a train wreck. You understand every stage of the disaster and none of them inspire disbelief, but the overall scene is awful (in the full awe-full sense of the word) and depressing at the same time.

Are believers idiots? In the larger context of their lives, no. (Well, SOME are, but in general no.) But idiocy is not a constant. Everyone is an idiot about something five minutes out of the day, as the saying goes, though I think that's an understatement. So Christians might not be idiots when they're on the job or raising their children or driving in traffic or making dinner. But on this subject? Yeah, they're idiots. Is that a reason to judge them negatively overall? Not really... though there's something of a cautionary tale to be had there. But there are subjects that I'm an idiot about too. The key here is breaking down how and why they are being idiots, identifying the causes, and educating myself and others on how to avoid these paths to idiocy. NOT to pass righteous judgement.
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19-03-2016, 06:24 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2016 06:44 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Question for atheists...
Idiot hasn't even defined what "naturalism" is.
Nothing new here. Same as "Who created the supernatural realm".
Same shit different day.

Spam.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-03-2016, 06:29 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
No, no.... this time around I'm sure Call_of_the_Wild equated their "Naturalism"/natural reality to magic-hat bunny....

I'm pretty sure there's a couple of posts along those lines.
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19-03-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 05:02 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 04:46 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  Which according to you was magically poofed into existence instantly, through an entirely unknown process. How does that count as an explanation?

We don't have to know how the magician pulled the rabbit out of the hat...but we can see clearly that the magician is the cause of the rabbit appearing. On naturalism, there was no magician, the rabbit just popped in to being...and not only did it pop in to being, but it began to talk, think, laugh, play, have sex, etc.

It is clear as to which notion is ridiculous, and which isn't.

Isn't it almost time for gawd to pull a rabbit out his hat? I see the Easter candy out. Always wondered about the death of Christ/Easter bunny connection. Now I know. Thumbsup

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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19-03-2016, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2016 07:53 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Greetings all,

My question is for the atheists out there. This is a serious question and I'd like serious answers. Let's try to keep the bullshit to a minimum, shall we?

Now, as we all know, when you ask atheists about their lack of belief in God, they will say things like "I don't believe in God, just like I don't believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy" (insert as many make-believe characters you'd like).

That being said, I am a Christian Theist, so I can only look through the lens of Christianity (Judeo-Christianity)..so..

My question is; Do you really believe that the Christian's belief in God is synonymous to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy?? Because to me, if there was an adult that seriously and earnestly believed in Santa Claus/Tooth Fairy, I would probably think that something is wrong with him/her. I would think "I don't understand how rational human being (adult) could ever believe in such a thing".

Is that how you atheists view Christians? Do you really believe that our belief in God is similar to belief in Santa Claus..or is that just something you say to be facetious??

Is it to the extent where you pass by a Church on Sunday, and you see all of the Church attendees in the parking lot greeting each other...and you say to yourself "What a bunch of idiots..."

Is that what you think? I am just curious, as I am trying to figure out how far to the left some of you are on the "belief" line Laugh out load

*yawn*

I don't believe in imaginary creatures or characters. Period. I find it curious when people who seem to have rational thought processes choose to believe in something soley because it makes them feel good. But whatever.

I live by several churches, admittedly I've seen many times a full parking lot, but rarely do I see people walking into service or milling around outside. Could be because I live in the rain belt? That said I have seen them cut me off to get in front of my car when leaving. I assume they're in a hurry or perhaps they just want to make a quick exit?

However I give them no thought whatsoever.

What I don't understand is why you and your ilk feel it's somehow your duty to come to a group of people who don't believe and question them at all.

I don't go joining religious forums to spread the word about atheism (and if I did Im sure I'd be banned quickly) Personally I feel people need to come to it on their own. That said for a group who claims such widespread persecution they seem to get lots of perks. Deference when it comes to lawmakers...hell, even elected officials have to out believe the others to curry favor amongst their constituents.

but really what's the difference between something that you can't prove in anyway exists -- there is no test that can be performed to offer any proof -- and something that doesn't actually exist?

It does become wearisome when "believers™ say you'll find out when your dead. Snappy comeback if there ever was one. Pity they too will one day die and also enter the void of not existing -- and will NEVER realize there's nothing else.

Oh well.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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19-03-2016, 07:39 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2016 07:50 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Question for atheists...
I don't know if a God or Gods exists and if it does I am not that moved to worship it.
That being said I don't think all Christians or Theists are believers in a made up story.
I think it's quite possible Theists & Atheists both share a similar approach in their belief system.

Some Atheists became atheists because of a lack of empirical evidence in their lives whilst others just don't see the need for a God. There are many reasons for not being a Theist and not always due to a lack of empirical evidence I think.

Here are some questions for Atheists & Theists:
If YOU have found Empirical Evidence for the existence of God would you then believe?
What is Empircal Evidence?
Here is the wiki definition:
"Empirical evidence, also known as sense experience, is a collective term for the knowledge or source of knowledge acquired by means of the senses, particularly by observation and experimentation."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence

What do you think "sense experience" or "means of the senses" is?
Is it not the same as personal experience?
Should an atheist believe the Pyramids of Egypt exist if they have never had any empirical evidence of the Pyramids?
Should a theist believe God exists if they have never had any empirical evidence of God's existence?
Look at the definition of empirical evidence again before you reply.
Do you think a large percentage of the population or literarature or other forms of communication telling you that pyramids exist is reason enough to believe in the Pyramids?
Do you think a large percentage of the population or literarature or other forms of communication telling you that God exists is reason enough to believe in God's existence?
Do you think most of the people telling you pyramids exists, personally experienced it's existence?
Does it really take much more than popular belief for you to believe something exists?
Is popular belief a form of empirical evidence?
Look at the definition again before you reply.

If every time you ordered a pizza, it was delivered, would you doubt that the pizza shop existed?
If it wasn't always delivered would would you be justifid to stop believing it existed?
If every time you prayed to a God the results were in your favor, would you doubt God's existence?
If it wasn't always in your favor would would you be justified to doubt God's existence?
Is this not a form of empirical evidence?

Do you think popular belief counts as empirical evidence instead of personal experience?
Look at the definition of empirical evidence again before you reply
Is there anything you believe in that you haven't personally experienced?
Is empirical evidence really that important for you to accept the possibility that something exists?
If belief in the Pyramids is justified regardless of empirical evidence directly in your life then why can't belief in God also be justified as well?

Who here is willing to argue that believing in empirical evidence gathered by someone other than yourself is not a belief in the unseen?
Do we not do this all the time or do you possess omniscience?
Is such a belief rational?
Is such a belief to be classed as a fairy tail?

If I said all Atheists and Theists that believe in the unseen are fairy tail believers would you feel offended?
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19-03-2016, 07:49 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
It would not be offensive as it's meaningless, and a false analogy
Just because one has not personally seen the pyramids,
does not mean there is no sensory evidence for them. The definition does not say it has to be *your* sense experience to be empirical.

You for got some important parts.
"The senses are the primary source of empirical evidence. Although other sources of evidence, such as memory and the testimony of others, ultimately trace back to some sensory experience, they are considered secondary, or indirect.

In another sense, empirical evidence may be synonymous with the outcome of an experiment. In this sense, an empirical result is a unified confirmation. In this context, the term semi-empirical is used for qualifying theoretical methods that use, in part, basic axioms or postulated scientific laws and experimental results. Such methods are opposed to theoretical ab initio methods, which are purely deductive and based on first principles.

In science, empirical evidence is required for a hypothesis to gain acceptance in the scientific community. Normally, this validation is achieved by the scientific method of hypothesis commitment, experimental design, peer review, adversarial review, reproduction of results, conference presentation and journal publication. This requires rigorous communication of hypothesis (usually expressed in mathematics), experimental constraints and controls (expressed necessarily in terms of standard experimental apparatus), and a common understanding of measurement.

So no. It's not offensive. It's just stupidity, and ignorance of how science works.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-03-2016, 07:53 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 07:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It would not be offensive as it's meaningless, and a false analogy
Just because one has not personally seen the pyramids,
does not mean there is no sensory evidence for them. The definition does not say it has to be *your* sense experience to be empirical.

You for got some important parts.
"The senses are the primary source of empirical evidence. Although other sources of evidence, such as memory and the testimony of others, ultimately trace back to some sensory experience, they are considered secondary, or indirect.

In another sense, empirical evidence may be synonymous with the outcome of an experiment. In this sense, an empirical result is a unified confirmation. In this context, the term semi-empirical is used for qualifying theoretical methods that use, in part, basic axioms or postulated scientific laws and experimental results. Such methods are opposed to theoretical ab initio methods, which are purely deductive and based on first principles.

In science, empirical evidence is required for a hypothesis to gain acceptance in the scientific community. Normally, this validation is achieved by the scientific method of hypothesis commitment, experimental design, peer review, adversarial review, reproduction of results, conference presentation and journal publication. This requires rigorous communication of hypothesis (usually expressed in mathematics), experimental constraints and controls (expressed necessarily in terms of standard experimental apparatus), and a common understanding of measurement.

So no. It's not offensive. It's just stupidity, and ignorance of how science works.
It's just questions. I have made no assertions, only listed some possibilities. The ones answering the questions can make assertions.
Are you asserting that popular belief still counts as empirical evidence if you do not personally experienced the evidence yourself?
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