Question for atheists...
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19-03-2016, 08:40 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2016 08:48 PM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Question for atheists...
At work.

(19-03-2016 08:28 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  1)Do you believe Gravity exists?
2)Do you believe Black holes exist?
3)Do you believe Dark Matter Exists?
4)Do you believe Dark energy exists?
5)Do you believe in fairy tales?
6)Do you believe in God?

Answers to above questions:

1) No and* Yes
2) Yes and* No
3) No and* Yes
4) Yes and* No
5) No and* Yes
6) Yes and* No.

'*' 'And' is being short hand for 'As well as'
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19-03-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 08:28 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 08:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  No, evidence need not be empirical but it must be tracable to sense perception. All knowledge begins with perception but we are not limited to the perceptual level because we have the ability to form concepts and then higher level concepts by integrating those into wider and wider abstractions. That's what proof is, elucidating the steps back to the perceptual level. I need not actually see the pyramids so long as I can hop on a plane to Egypt and see for myself that they actually exist if I want to. So when it comes to God all I need to see is the logical steps of inference made from the perceptual level to God in a way that is compatible with the primacy of existence principle.
Do you believe Gravity exists?
Do you believe Black holes exist?
Do you believe Dark Matter Exists?
Do you believe Dark energy exists?
Do you believe in fairy tales?
Do you believe in God?

If you had a 99% probability that you will die in a certain situation and you lived after praying would you still doubt your prayer had any effect?
What if it happened more than once?
Is believing that your prayer worked irrational?

These are questions, not assertions. I'm searching for logical answers, I'm not trying to debate you.
This is going to be hard as I'm posting from my iPod touch but I'll try.

Do you believe in Gravity? Yes I do
Do you believe black holes exist? Yes. Their existence has been confirmed.
Do I believe that dark matter exists? My belief is extremely tentative and provisional.

Same with dark energy.

Do I believe in fairy tales? Yes I believe fairy tales exist but no I don'T believe they are true. They're just fantasy stories.

Do I believe in God? No.

As for your question about prayer, no I would not believe that prayer had any effect and yes believing in prayer is irrational. It violates the primacy of existence.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-03-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Is that how you atheists view Christians? Do you really believe that our belief in God is similar to belief in Santa Claus..or is that just something you say to be facetious??

Is it to the extent where you pass by a Church on Sunday, and you see all of the Church attendees in the parking lot greeting each other...and you say to yourself "What a bunch of idiots..."

You have to remember that many of us here were once believers too.

Having said that if I had the opportunity to sit down with my former self and have a discussion about religion I’m not sure the person I am today could have completely convinced that previous guy that believing in a supernatural supreme being was irrational.

So to answer your question, no, I don’t think of believers as a bunch of idiots. I certainly don’t think of my former self as an idiot, I look back and see a brainwashed kid and young adult wanting to accept what my parents and elders said was the truth.

Now I know that they too were brainwashed and feel sorry for them, the same way I feel sorry for you.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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19-03-2016, 08:49 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 08:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 08:28 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Do you believe Gravity exists?
Do you believe Black holes exist?
Do you believe Dark Matter Exists?
Do you believe Dark energy exists?
Do you believe in fairy tales?
Do you believe in God?

If you had a 99% probability that you will die in a certain situation and you lived after praying would you still doubt your prayer had any effect?
What if it happened more than once?
Is believing that your prayer worked irrational?

These are questions, not assertions. I'm searching for logical answers, I'm not trying to debate you.

One does not (have to) "believe" in that for which evidence exists, and is the best explanation of the observed/reported evidence, until more evidence or a better theory comes along. Fairy tales, gods, Dark Energy, Dark Matter, Black Holes, and the theory of gravity are not in the same category.

Composition fallacy, exception fallacy :
Inferring that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole.
Are you saying that you don't necessarily need to observe Empircal evidence to believe that Empircal evidence exists?
Is this not the same as believing in the unseen?
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19-03-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 08:43 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 08:28 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Do you believe Gravity exists?
Do you believe Black holes exist?
Do you believe Dark Matter Exists?
Do you believe Dark energy exists?
Do you believe in fairy tales?
Do you believe in God?

If you had a 99% probability that you will die in a certain situation and you lived after praying would you still doubt your prayer had any effect?
What if it happened more than once?
Is believing that your prayer worked irrational?

These are questions, not assertions. I'm searching for logical answers, I'm not trying to debate you.
This is going to be hard as I'm posting from my iPod touch but I'll try.

Do you believe in Gravity? Yes I do
Do you believe black holes exist? Yes. Their existence has been confirmed.
Do I believe that dark matter exists? My belief is extremely tentative and provisional.

Same with dark energy.

Do I believe in fairy tales? Yes I believe fairy tales exist but no I don'T believe they are true. They're just fantasy stories.

Do I believe in God? No.

As for your question about prayer, no I would not believe that prayer had any effect and yes believing in prayer is irrational. It violates the primacy of existence.
Why do you believe that gravity exists?
What is gravity?

Can we use the same logic you used to prove that gravity exists to prove that god exists? If not why?
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19-03-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  My question is; Do you really believe that the Christian's belief in God is synonymous to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy?? Because to me, if there was an adult that seriously and earnestly believed in Santa Claus/Tooth Fairy, I would probably think that something is wrong with him/her. I would think "I don't understand how rational human being (adult) could ever believe in such a thing".

Is that how you atheists view Christians? Do you really believe that our belief in God is similar to belief in Santa Claus..or is that just something you say to be facetious??

The only major difference I see between your god and the Tooth Fairy is that there isn't nearly as much of a social investment in the Tooth Fairy. It's essentially a game played between parent and child, with teeth and coins used as tokens.

Christianity I see as a 1700-year-old scam perpetrated by the Romans to keep the population duly subservient. There is no question that there exists a highly organized religious establishment with centuries of tradition, but I do not believe there is an actual god at the bottom of it. I believe that your god is no more real than the Tooth Fairy; it's simply a more established game being played by more people for much higher stakes.
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19-03-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
I would say yes it is equivalent to that, because thanks to history, the abrahamic faiths have been shown to be myths, many times forgetting to edit out hints of it. The difference between yahweh and santa is that for years the christians have went around the world destroying cultures and killing in order to spread the dogma. Santa, not so much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism

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19-03-2016, 09:03 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2016 09:08 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Question for atheists...
I perceive gravity directly. Gravity is the attractive force between matter. I don't need to prove that which is perceptually self evident. No you can't prove that God exists because that would commit the fallacy of the stolen concept. It would be using logic to undermine logic. This is because logic rests exclusively on the primacy of existence principle and the notion of God assumes the primacy of consciousness. Gravity does not contradict any known facts.

Edit: This was in response to agnostic Shane's question to me. For some reason it didn't quote.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-03-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Greetings all,

My question is for the atheists out there. This is a serious question and I'd like serious answers. Let's try to keep the bullshit to a minimum, shall we?

Now, as we all know, when you ask atheists about their lack of belief in God, they will say things like "I don't believe in God, just like I don't believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy" (insert as many make-believe characters you'd like).
Since I don't say that, I assume the rest doesn't apply to me. Hopefully you'll find what you're looking for.
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19-03-2016, 09:18 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2016 09:27 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:03 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I perceive gravity directly. Gravity is the attractive force between matter. I don't need to prove that which is perceptually self evident. No you can't prove that God exists because that would commit the fallacy of the stolen concept. It would be using logic to undermine logic. This is because logic rests exclusively on the primacy of existence principle and the notion of God assumes the primacy of consciousness. Gravity does not contradict any known facts.

Edit: This was in response to agnostic Shane's question to me. For some reason it didn't quote.
I'm an Agnostic. It doesn't matter to me if God does or doesn't exist at this point in my life. I believe the best way to understand someone's logic is to ask them questions rather than asserting your own beliefs as objections to their logic. I always maintain the fact that I could be wrong.

How exactly did you perceive gravity directly?
Are you stating that personal experience of something is one way to determine it's existence?
If someone personally experienced the presence of some unseen force each time they prayed would that be sufficient to determine said unseen force's existence?
Do you believe the Pryramids exist?
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