Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
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09-02-2012, 11:57 AM
 
Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
Erxomai (and any other former preachers here),

In a different thread about actual facts of the OT you wrote:

I heard most of this stuff in my Seminary days. It took me about 15 years to get it past my excellent cognitive dissonance compartmentalization skills.

This got me to thinking. MANY of the top atheist giants (Ehrman, Barker, Price) have all said the same thing.

Which leads me to the obvious question.
HOW do they cover it?

With such MONUMENTAL information thats the foundation of the Old Testament, how does this not cause a 'mass exodus' of seminary students? (sorry, the pun seemed appropriate).

Do they just gloss over this?
Spend much time and debate on it?

I'd like to know what actually goes on when this is covered in Seminary school.

Please indulge,
D
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09-02-2012, 12:30 PM
RE: Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
Speaking for myself, since I guess I'm the only one that I can speak for, I treated "Liberal Biblical Criticism" as just that: Liberal, therefore untrue. It's just a theory and we all know theories can be untrue. I gave the same treatment to the "theory" of evolution. I wasn't quite on the level of people who believe dinosaur fossils were planted by Satan to trick us, but it was the same sort of process. God is God and can do anything, including outwitting science. Humans can never understand the mind of God, so even IF these "liberal" theories are true, God can still use them for his glory. I wasn't a strict Calvinist like our good KC, but I did subscribed to the total Sovereignty of God. Information like the Documentary Hypothesis was presented and on my own, I categorized it as a theory that had been dismissed by people smarter than myself. I could never answer a scientist like Richard Dawkins, but I believed there were people "out there" who could answer him. I did the same thing with Biblical Criticism. I wasn't smart enough to know all the answers, but I trusted--through faith--that there were scholars who had figured it all out and since in God we trust, I trusted it would all be taken care of and someday evidence would come to light to zap all those damn liberal atheists. It took me a long time, but I eventually figured out that while there are people much smarter than I, the ones on the Faith side had less of a persuasive argument as the smart people on the Physical Evidence side of things.

I don't know how much of this ramble makes sense. I'm still trying to figure out how I held onto a false faith for as long as I did. I DO know that I'm no longer ashamed to defend something that I didn't feel comfortable with. When teaching about Biblical Authorship, I always hoped no one would raise any tricky questions that I wouldn't have an answer for. I never tried to intentionally deceive anyone, mind you, I just trusted that belief in God was true and accurate no matter what the evidence (much as William Lane Craig has basically said...if it's a choice between God and Evidence, he'll choose God). Well, I finally reached a point where holding onto faith in the face of evidence became untenable for me and I had to let it go. We've all heard the stories of how hard it is to let go. I even had a mind-fuck last night when I was thinking about my depression. It reached a danger point as I finally made the realization that I had become a de facto atheist. The Voice in my head made a brief appearance last night and pointed out that I probably became depressed because I had rejected God and if I would repent, He'd make me feel better. The thing is, I lived a lifetime of depression under God, so why would regaining my faith make me suddenly feel better? It wouldn't...but that's the mind-fuck that religion does to people.

I'm sure I could add more later. These are just the first free-flowing thoughts I had when I read your question.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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09-02-2012, 01:02 PM
 
RE: Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
(09-02-2012 12:30 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Speaking for myself, since I guess I'm the only one that I can speak for, I treated "Liberal Biblical Criticism" as just that: Liberal, therefore untrue. It's just a theory and we all know theories can be untrue. I gave the same treatment to the "theory" of evolution. I wasn't quite on the level of people who believe dinosaur fossils were planted by Satan to trick us, but it was the same sort of process. God is God and can do anything, including outwitting science. Humans can never understand the mind of God, so even IF these "liberal" theories are true, God can still use them for his glory. I wasn't a strict Calvinist like our good KC, but I did subscribed to the total Sovereignty of God. Information like the Documentary Hypothesis was presented and on my own, I categorized it as a theory that had been dismissed by people smarter than myself. I could never answer a scientist like Richard Dawkins, but I believed there were people "out there" who could answer him. I did the same thing with Biblical Criticism. I wasn't smart enough to know all the answers, but I trusted--through faith--that there were scholars who had figured it all out and since in God we trust, I trusted it would all be taken care of and someday evidence would come to light to zap all those damn liberal atheists. It took me a long time, but I eventually figured out that while there are people much smarter than I, the ones on the Faith side had less of a persuasive argument as the smart people on the Physical Evidence side of things.

I don't know how much of this ramble makes sense. I'm still trying to figure out how I held onto a false faith for as long as I did. I DO know that I'm no longer ashamed to defend something that I didn't feel comfortable with. When teaching about Biblical Authorship, I always hoped no one would raise any tricky questions that I wouldn't have an answer for. I never tried to intentionally deceive anyone, mind you, I just trusted that belief in God was true and accurate no matter what the evidence (much as William Lane Craig has basically said...if it's a choice between God and Evidence, he'll choose God). Well, I finally reached a point where holding onto faith in the face of evidence became untenable for me and I had to let it go. We've all heard the stories of how hard it is to let go. I even had a mind-fuck last night when I was thinking about my depression. It reached a danger point as I finally made the realization that I had become a de facto atheist. The Voice in my head made a brief appearance last night and pointed out that I probably became depressed because I had rejected God and if I would repent, He'd make me feel better. The thing is, I lived a lifetime of depression under God, so why would regaining my faith make me suddenly feel better? It wouldn't...but that's the mind-fuck that religion does to people.

I'm sure I could add more later. These are just the first free-flowing thoughts I had when I read your question.

Thanks for the insightful reply. Kinda how i thought, but nothing like 1st hand info.

Yeah the Mind-Fuck, it happens to Depressed and NON Depressed alike. So dont let that bother you so much, thats just how strong that CULT really drilled down into our Psyche.

So, did they teach that stuff LIKE they taught the 'fleeting concept' of evolution? Just as a passing glance, or did they go into substance at all (in order to prep you for the apologetics)?

At the top there is an instructor, and for years this instructor has the same class syllabus, he covers the same stuff. I just cant see how year after year of teaching some of the anti bible arguments, that it does not stick. Are they just in denial?

D
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09-02-2012, 03:37 PM
RE: Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
I think there are a lot of professor types who find ways to be ok with the dissonance. My deal was I was pretty much a Fundie so my journey went first to a more liberal understanding to out the door completely. I think people who already have a liberal leaning won't be as affected because their Christianity may not impact their lifestyle as much as a conservative The other issue is tenure. How many professors in any field can grow intellectually fat and lazy and maybe haven't reviewed their arguments in years. I realized a while back that I would rather see a young medical doctor fresh it of school than an old MD who has been out of academics for 30 years.

Another mind-fuck tactic occurred to me. All throughout high school I was taught I had to beware the Humanist Agenda. So even though I went to public school, Evolution did not sink in. My defenses were too strong. Then I was told when you went to college the attacks on christianty would be even stronger so watch out for the devil's lies disguised as "facts". So I was already predetermined in my mind to stand strong against the tricks of the "enemy".

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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09-02-2012, 04:09 PM
 
RE: Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
(09-02-2012 03:37 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Another mind-fuck tactic occurred to me. All throughout high school I was taught I had to beware the Humanist Agenda.

Holy Fuck! You and i must meet and share some great wine and a mean steak to discuss this stuff.

I did go to a southern baptist grade, middle and high school (leaving in 10th grade). We were WARNED specifically about those "Humanists" and their ego ways..of putting man on high. And was ALSO warned quite heavily about religious studies in those LIBERAL universities (any university thats not got a religious bias). Its as if they were preparing our YOUNG minds to be ready to simply combat the entire world and our only refuge was church/bible/theology.

I had a Bible 1 & 2 teacher (we did not have electives like Shop or Woodworking class) that pulled out Rush lyrics and SHOWED us the humanist ways of the lyrics. Scared the HELL out of us with backwards Zeppelin records.

The approach was similar in nature too....WARNING us first then the life experience to follow (if that makes sense). They'd TELL us what we were about to hear..backwards....then play it..and sure enough EVERYONE heard it. Likewise, they WARNED us about teachers in college who'd try and 'test our faith' with magic tricks such as archeology, history and science. That the so called 'religious' teachers in liberal institutions were actually doing the devils work by planting seeds of doubt.
They'd view folks like Strobel as near saints and folks like Robert Price and Ehrman as hellbound...well...white soulless apes!

They would prepare our mind..., that way when we sensed something a bit contrary to our faith....WE SEE IT happening as we were told it would. Thats how i saw it for years. Refusing the actual truth and combating the words with steadfast prayer and reading. Basically putting fingers in ears and refusing to look TRUTH in the eye.

I can still remember bewarned about those that put man on a pedestal above god....those..those HUMANIST!
D
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09-02-2012, 07:29 PM
RE: Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
Yeah Dude, we totally grew up in the same culture. I was a Baptist, but it was a strange breed of even strange for Baptists. I was a 7th Day Baptist, which means we kept the Sabbath as commanded by the Ten Commandments. But other than the day we worshiped on, we were probably closest to your lovely Southern Baptists. Backward records were indeed all the rage. And I remember lessons at camp where we dissected Strawberry Fields by the Beatles and Blondie's Rapture so we could judge their worldviews as wicked things.

Break out the wine and steak and let's commiserate and mock together!

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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09-02-2012, 08:22 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2012 08:26 PM by Thomas.)
RE: Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
(09-02-2012 11:57 AM)Denicio Wrote:  With such MONUMENTAL information thats the foundation of the Old Testament, how does this not cause a 'mass exodus' of seminary students?

Great question.

All depends on the student.
The hardcore literalists (born-Agains) have a high dropout rate early. They leave in disgust of the fact that “the instructors” are admitting the bible’s fallacies. The more liberal stick it out mostly and learn one main skill. Defense. They must learn to defend the critique of the bible from their own flock. In the end this is just a business. It's like going to McDonald University when you purchase a franchise. Flipping burgers, flipping souls. It's all about the revenues.

The Catholics are probably the most honest with their priests-to-be. They pretty much let them know the inside secrete of how this book was assembled. That doesn’t imply that the Catholics are just scamming their parishioners. They believe the basic overall message. Ever wonder why Catholics don’t carry bibles? The message is reformatted into books, missalettes, etc. If you challenge a Catholic priest on the bible literally he will just smile and delivery a quant line about having faith in the lord.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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12-02-2012, 02:15 AM
RE: Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
I will admit that we Catholics have very poor knowledge of biblical scripture. Also in MY school which is part of the Catholic school board of Toronto, there was never any attempt to hide the truth or deny it. Hell the smartest person I have ever met is still my chemistry teacher who was probably the most devout person I've ever known. He also taught religion and ethics. I think the smartest person in my school was our physics teacher (member of MENSA Canada) who was also very devout, although I never had him.
Also creationism and Darwinism was covered in religion class not in biology or history, The main focus of this is to differentiate between creationism, creation, evolution and Darwinism. meaning that we should avoid the ideological edges. Our grade 11 religion was world religions were we studied the 5 major religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism). Not once were any of these religions called evil or even wrong for that matter. Another thing is that in grade 11 History an entire unit was dedicated to anthropology.

But than Again I live in Canada in the modern age and am a catholic so were all together more liberal.

P.S. one reason why Catholics don't necessarily memorize the bible is that we don't consider the Bible inerrant or the only means of salvation. The lives of the saints are considered very important although less so than the Bible.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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12-02-2012, 06:50 AM
RE: Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
In seminary, is there actually a class on how to make a move on young boys, or do priests pass this along informally to each other?
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12-02-2012, 09:51 AM
RE: Question for the Preachers...Calling on Erxomai
It's so crazy to think that people actually took the backwards record thing seriously at some point... or that they still do. WTF.

I don't get it. Even if there was some hidden message, it can't actually do anything. It's not magic.

Maybe this is why I could read the entire harry potter series without it keeping me up at night.

Also Zep rocks.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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