Question of Theory of Evolution
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30-11-2015, 12:18 AM
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
(30-11-2015 12:05 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  While it is true that the Ursay experiment results in a mixture, as more and more acids accumulate and form more complex proteins, it is not unreasonable that some aggregations of proteins could catalize the production while complexed with transition metals dissolved in the water. If one enantiomer is favored (lets say L) in the slightest, it will form a slight excess of one enantiomer (L), which can then go on to form other proteins with a slightly enriched L. Some of thest can form the complex that can catalize the formation of the acid again, but with slightly better selectivity. Over millions of cycles thos can repeat where slowly one hand is favored heavily. Also keep in mind that as the favortism of L increases, the amount of D decreases, thereby slowing the formation of complexes capable of forming D because the complex that favors D has less material to begin with. Asymmetric synthesis FTW.

Blink
Thanks...I think.

I have read about the Ursay experiment, but reading it does not mean I understood it.

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30-11-2015, 12:20 AM (This post was last modified: 30-11-2015 12:26 AM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
(30-11-2015 12:18 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(30-11-2015 12:05 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  While it is true that the Ursay experiment results in a mixture, as more and more acids accumulate and form more complex proteins, it is not unreasonable that some aggregations of proteins could catalize the production while complexed with transition metals dissolved in the water. If one enantiomer is favored (lets say L) in the slightest, it will form a slight excess of one enantiomer (L), which can then go on to form other proteins with a slightly enriched L. Some of thest can form the complex that can catalize the formation of the acid again, but with slightly better selectivity. Over millions of cycles thos can repeat where slowly one hand is favored heavily. Also keep in mind that as the favortism of L increases, the amount of D decreases, thereby slowing the formation of complexes capable of forming D because the complex that favors D has less material to begin with. Asymmetric synthesis FTW.

Blink
Thanks...I think.

I have read about the Ursay experiment, but reading it does not mean I understood it.

It helps that my background is in asymmetric synthesis. Big Grin

Edit: Shit I spelled asymmetric wrong. I hate my fat fingers sometimes.

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30-11-2015, 12:22 AM
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
(30-11-2015 12:20 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(30-11-2015 12:18 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Blink
Thanks...I think.

I have read about the Ursay experiment, but reading it does not mean I understood it.

It helps that my background is in anymmetric synthesis. Big Grin

Well, you are The Organic Chemist, I just seem to go round and round.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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30-11-2015, 12:40 AM
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
(30-11-2015 12:05 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Also keep in mind that as the favortism of L increases, the amount of D decreases, thereby slowing the formation of complexes capable of forming D because the complex that favors D has less material to begin with. Asymmetric synthesis FTW.

Well, I am not sure did I read it right, but at least I know it is not impossible for first cell on earth to be construct and I think the first cell have enough time to try in 4.5 billion yearsConsider

Anyway, thank you for your detailed replyBowing
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30-11-2015, 12:41 AM
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
(30-11-2015 12:20 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  ...
Edit: Shit I spelled asymmetric wrong. I hate my fat fingers sometimes.

Maybe use your other hand?

Wink

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30-11-2015, 12:42 AM
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
(30-11-2015 12:41 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(30-11-2015 12:20 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  ...
Edit: Shit I spelled asymmetric wrong. I hate my fat fingers sometimes.

Maybe use your other hand?

Wink

It's...ummm...busy.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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30-11-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
(30-11-2015 12:05 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  While it is true that the Ursay experiment results in a mixture, as more and more acids accumulate and form more complex proteins, it is not unreasonable that some aggregations of proteins could catalize the production while complexed with transition metals dissolved in the water. If one enantiomer is favored (lets say L) in the slightest, it will form a slight excess of one enantiomer (L), which can then go on to form other proteins with a slightly enriched L. Some of thest can form the complex that can catalize the formation of the acid again, but with slightly better selectivity. Over millions of cycles thos can repeat where slowly one hand is favored heavily. Also keep in mind that as the favortism of L increases, the amount of D decreases, thereby slowing the formation of complexes capable of forming D because the complex that favors D has less material to begin with. Asymmetric synthesis FTW.

Do you mean the Urey-Miller experiment? Consider

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30-11-2015, 09:09 AM
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
(30-11-2015 09:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  Do you mean the Urey-Miller experiment? Consider

Yes, that.

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30-11-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
(29-11-2015 09:03 AM)AntiRootOfAllEvil Wrote:  Hi fellows, I am the newbie to the forum. As usual I am watching videos on youtube, aI found out a video that talk about the Theory of Evolution are totally wrong. It said the first cell 100% Left-Handed Amino Acids to construct proteins, but both Left and Right Handed Amino Acids are having the same possibility to form. It is near impossible to happen a series of coincidence, because of the Probability theory--Continuous probability theory.

Ah yes, creationists and their tenuous grasp of probability. Rolleyes

So, left and right handed proteins, give us two possibilities with equal probabilities of forming, meaning fifty percent, like a coin flip. Given that this is the case, the probability of left or right amino acids exclusively forming are exactly the same.

But.

The probability of any other given sequence of left and right handed amino acids forming, assuming the sequence is the same length as those other two, is exactly the same as if the sequence was uniformly left or right.There is, functionally, no probabilistic difference between a 100% left handed amino acid sequence, and a random mix of left and right. The probability of either occurring is identical.

So when a creationist tries to point out that it's so unlikely that a 100% left handed sequence could form by chance, the response should be that it's equally unlikely for any other sequence to form, out of the entire probability pool. The creationist is simply wrong; one of the possibilities had to come out, and there's nothing special about the 100% left handed one from a probabilistic standpoint. It's only a significant possibility after the fact because we can see a pattern in it that wasn't at all a factor in its initial formation.
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01-12-2015, 03:52 PM
RE: Question of Theory of Evolution
Talk origins also has a nice section which discuses provabilities of getting a specific sequence of amino acids which is more complex since you have 20 variables (20 amino acids) per residue as opposed to 2 variables (D or L amino acids). The gist of it is that if you are randomly making one protein at a time until you get the all D or all L protein, yes it is going to take a long time to make the all D or all L, but if you start making 10^50 proteins at the same time you are going to get there a lot faster. Clearly in a pre-biotic world, there was nothing restricting the synthesis of proteins to the one a time scenario.

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
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