Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
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12-01-2017, 05:18 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 03:22 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 03:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  You and A2 have generalized that mockery is the norm here. It is not.
Not every theist and not only theists who get mocked and it is a minority of forum members who do the mocking.
It is generally applied to those who are deluded, willfully ignorant, and/or liars.

Its not the amount of theists who get mocked, its the fact that any of us here feel the need to mock them in the first place.

(12-01-2017 03:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Seth started TTA as a community for non-believers, and *we* support(ed) it as such. If believers want to post their shit here, they can expect to have it dissected and questioned.

This isn't the "be nice to religionists" forum.
There are honest theists here who earn respect.

No one here is the arbiter of who gets to say what, even though they think that's their new job. Just don't fucking read it, or put people on ignore.

With respect vosur isn't just postulating being nice to the 'religionists' at least that isn't what I'm doing, can't really speak for him, but rather that there is no room for mocking or insulting others in what should be a civil debate. You shouldn't save civility for a specific place on the forum only going there on rare occasions, it should be something that is always with you. Because there is nothing to be gleaned from mocking someone. All mocking serves to do is make one feel better about themselves at the expense of someone else.

That's for the sermon. If I need any advice from you, I'll be sure and ask.
You (and he) don't make the rules here, Mr. -11.

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12-01-2017, 06:41 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 03:22 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  You shouldn't save civility for a specific place on the forum only going there on rare occasions, it should be something that is always with you.

In theory this sounds like good advice.

In practice, however, it is extremely uncivil. It is not cool to dictate others' reactions and words to them and essentially trying to shame them into not speaking their minds when dealing with the worst of the worst -- People who clearly do not respect us and our experiences, and expect us to trade all that we are for whatever they happen to be.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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12-01-2017, 09:08 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 01:20 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Do you think mocking others shows them your superior intellect?
No, why would it? My ability to think rationally, explain my position in a concise and easy to read format, and my ability to critically evaluate claims could be considered to show my intellect.

If you think that me mocking someone is an attempt to show my own intellect and not to ridicule the ridiculous then you entirely miss the point. Now that said why not go read my original response to that girl and you might notice while I was critical and skeptical of her I didn't mock her. Once again your mouth is firing at a speed that far outstrips your brain.


(12-01-2017 01:20 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  That girl was a critical thinker, and while she may have been less critical in areas than you or others were
She was demonstrably not. You are not a critical thinker if you only apply your critical thinking skills to the areas of your thought that are convenient to you to do so. Critical thinking has to be applied consistently and to ALL claims, not just the ones you bloody feel like.

(12-01-2017 01:20 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  she undoubtedly is more critical in areas you and others are not.
That's entirely possible but she at no point demonstrated this in the slightest, so this little point can crawl back up your ass.

(12-01-2017 01:20 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Within each and every mind on this planet is a gold mine, a treasure just waiting to be found. Even yours and morondog's.
And sometimes, like with you, that mine had a single seam that was mined out by the time it was six years old. Drinking Beverage

I have no doubt there was worth in her head, lots of interesting things I'm sure, but I frankly don't give a flying fuck. The parts of her mind that she chose to share with us were irrational, simplistic, devoid of critical evaluation, and full of fallacious arguments and that is what I evaluated her on.

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12-01-2017, 09:12 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 02:18 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 02:09 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Taqiyya Mockingbird, now that was one vicious bastard who would attack anyone without even taking their previous conduct into account. I don't plan on calling out any active users that are like him by name, but they do exist and I hope they have the self-awareness to know who they are.

Muffs, whisky, bucky, myself... Consider

I'm at a loss... Undecided

While it has not been true 100% of the time, the vast majority of the time when I sink my claws into someone and let rip it's exactly because of their previous conduct. Most of the time I don't really get going until it's clear a person is actively engaged in lying to me or others. I hate that shit.

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12-01-2017, 10:12 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 09:12 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 02:18 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Muffs, whisky, bucky, myself... Consider

I'm at a loss... Undecided

While it has not been true 100% of the time, the vast majority of the time when I sink my claws into someone and let rip it's exactly because of their previous conduct. Most of the time I don't really get going until it's clear a person is actively engaged in lying to me or others. I hate that shit.

I'll just say that I managed to get CW to conceded the point, very painfully and after a lot of back and forth, in his first thread. Since then I haven't paid much attention to him, he's just been boring. But if I found out he was parroting the exact same line of bullshit a second time, then hell yes, I'd rip him a new asshole; and he'll have deserved it.

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12-01-2017, 10:45 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Not that I don't believe you, but care to post some examples?
99% of the posts made by Aliza about her religious beliefs, the vast majority of posts made by KC about his just to name two, well known, people. There are several theists on this forum that most certainly do not agree with the "popular opinion" who are held in good standing and who don't get "ganged up on at every turn".

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Are you saying that every opinion that deviates from the popular one around here is "demonstrably fucking stupid" or "ridiculous"
I can't think of a single way you could rationally get that from what I said. No Vosur, opinions don't become instantly labeled "demonstrably fucking stupid" just because they don't agree with what is popular here. They become positions that are demonstrably fucking stupid after they have been demonstrated to be fucking stupid.
First Cause
Flat Earth
Creationism

These are all examples of positions that have been proven with evidence or good argument to be demonstrably fucking stupid. Arguing these positions or beliefs will get you mocked and rightly so. If you join a forum full of free thinkers and skeptics and you present your case with nothing but long debunked nonsense you can expect to catch flak, I can't think of any forum where you wouldn't.



(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  or are you saying that people only attack, mock or ridicule opinions that exhibit those characteristics?
Only? No. Though I will admit that this question is legitimate as I worded my post poorly. I should have said, people are not getting mocked just because they disagree with a popular opinion. There are lots of people here that mock people for a ton of reasons and I could care less what they are to be frank, though I'm not among the perpetually outraged that seem to infest the internet these days.

They can mock her cause they don't like her name for all I care, as for me she hadn't done much of anything worth my claws so I kept them, for the most part, sheathed. I'm not anyones fucking parents so I could care less about their conduct at greeting the next in a long line of the same people with the same story and the same justifications, and the same utter and complete lack of evidence. But your implication that the only reason people get mocked is because they don't agree with what's popular is just ridiculous.



(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  That's not what happened. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you simply remember the events incorrectly rather than that you're straight-up lying about them.
And you are correct sir, I thought she had mentioned it in a subsequent post but on rereading her posts that was not the case. I apologize for my error. It doesn't affect the legitimacy of my post to her as she considered herself a critical thinker and was clearly and demonstrably not. Not an excuse for sloppy research though so you have my thanks.
I still think claiming to be a critical thinker while posting a whole bunch of examples where you very clearly didn't apply critical thinking is inviting mockery way more than the fact she is not an Athiest.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  The user in question made a polite and respectful post in the Introduction section of the forum, a place meant for welcoming new users rather than debating them,
I didn't join the conversation until after it had been moved so I don't really care too much.



(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Your claim that she told us that she's a critical thinker 'several times' and then proceeded to voice opinions and beliefs that exhibit a lack of critical thinking is patently false in light of those facts.
Agreed. She still claimed to be a critical thinker and demonstrated the opposite however.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Here's a number of mocking and belittling responses that were made on the basis of her introduction post alone:...
In a couple of these, you seem to have mistaken criticism and asking questions for mockery.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Do you need me to go on or are you seriously going to continue arguing that she deserved to be treated this way based on her completely civil opening post?
I honestly don't give a fuck if a post is civil in tone or not, I care about its content. Being civil while you post nonsense doesn't and shouldn't protect you from criticism or derision. If her post was civil and polite and the content was about how African-Americans aren't actually people, or how the world was clearly flat would she deserve to be mocked? I'd say so, though others might not.
She is a Christian who came to an Athiest forum to share her "conversion" from Atheism to Christianity, a story that she hasn't evaluated critically at all, that you could play fallacy bingo with, and the worst treatment you have on offer is someone called her full of shit and posted a cat fail meme? Really man? That is some translucently thin skin.

For fuck sake, I'm a vicious cunt to a lot of people and even I wasn't mocking her. She thought she was being mocked when Stevil asked her the most glaringly obvious questions that need to be asked.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Her last comment before leaving the forum should have evoked a modicum of self-reflection in the bullies who ganged up on her....
Can't handle the heat don't step into the fire. She is a big girl and if she's gonna come to a part of the freaking internet where the default position of people is not accepting religious claims without evidence and then provide a bunch of religious claims with no evidence and cry when people make fun of her for it when we deal with this shit on a near daily basis then she is either nieve or stupid and she wouldn't have lasted long here anyway. She considered asking legitimate questions a form of mockery for fuck sake.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  All that is not even to mention how arrogant the notion that theists can't be critical thinkers is.
You can save your outrage for someone else mate because as far as I'm concerned if you suspend your critical thinking to maintain your religious beliefs then you are not a critical thinker, you are cherry picking where you will apply it and where you won't. That doesn't mean you are not capable of critical thought, but you're not consistent with it and thus I don't consider the label of "critical thinker" as applying to you any more than I consider the label of "honourable man" to men who only hit their wives when they are angry.


(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  How full of yourself does one have to be to believe that when there are numerous theists in the world who are far more educated, intelligent and accomplished than any member of this forum could ever hope to be?
You can be educated and intelligent and not apply critical thinking consistently, and be thus not what I would call a critical thinker. If you are a theist and your successful, intelligent, and educated but you won't apply the same rules of critical evaluations to your religious beliefs that you do to your non-religious beliefs then no you are not a critical thinker in my book. Critical thinking and scepticism is just a hobby for you at that point, something you pick up and put down as it suits you.

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12-01-2017, 10:55 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 03:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 03:13 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Who decides what is and isn't stupid? You? Well, that would certainly be convenient for your argument that mockery is reserved for stupidity.

You and A2 have generalized that mockery is the norm here. It is not.
Not every theist and not only theists who get mocked and it is a minority of forum members who do the mocking.
It is generally applied to those who are deluded, willfully ignorant, and/or liars.

I never made the claim that only theists get mocked, but rather that the problem is prominent enough against theists for me to have noticed. I didn't like what the forum turned into, it's one of the reasons why I left. In fact it was one of the reasons why I felt compelled to start my interviews, because I felt that we needed something to keep it light and be a unifying thing rather than divisive.
---- End of direct response to my homeboy Chas ----
I would like to point out that just today I was doing some thinking and I realized that it's hard to argue logically with someone, when that someone has discounted logic from the topic. Reasonable people might not do this in any capacity except within the religious realm. So, it's not that they aren't logical or don't apply logic well, it's that they have discounted logic from the argument, and therefore their lack of applying logic is a direct cause of the attributes they assign to God.

Bottomline, telling these people that they need to get their head checked is just not productive. It doesn't advance a conversation.

And by the way, the talk is that decent logical theists get respect here: I would say that we chase some theists away because of how we act toward them, which doesn't help them establish respect.

You are asking people to deal with insults, and the bullying in order to maybe possibly get the respect they deserve. I'm not asking that we be their friends, or even that we like them at all, hell, I'm not asking for anything. I'm just pointing out what I have been seeing and making it known that it's not just Vosur that sees a problem with how SOME, I never meant to insinuate ALL, treat the theists that want to engage in open dialogue here.

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12-01-2017, 10:58 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 10:45 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Not that I don't believe you, but care to post some examples?
99% of the posts made by Aliza about her religious beliefs, the vast majority of posts made by KC about his just to name two, well known, people. There are several theists on this forum that most certainly do not agree with the "popular opinion" who are held in good standing and who don't get "ganged up on at every turn".

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Are you saying that every opinion that deviates from the popular one around here is "demonstrably fucking stupid" or "ridiculous"
I can't think of a single way you could rationally get that from what I said. No Vosur, opinions don't become instantly labeled "demonstrably fucking stupid" just because they don't agree with what is popular here. They become positions that are demonstrably fucking stupid after they have been demonstrated to be fucking stupid.
First Cause
Flat Earth
Creationism

These are all examples of positions that have been proven with evidence or good argument to be demonstrably fucking stupid. Arguing these positions or beliefs will get you mocked and rightly so. If you join a forum full of free thinkers and skeptics and you present your case with nothing but long debunked nonsense you can expect to catch flak, I can't think of any forum where you wouldn't.



(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  or are you saying that people only attack, mock or ridicule opinions that exhibit those characteristics?
Only? No. Though I will admit that this question is legitimate as I worded my post poorly. I should have said, people are not getting mocked just because they disagree with a popular opinion. There are lots of people here that mock people for a ton of reasons and I could care less what they are to be frank, though I'm not among the perpetually outraged that seem to infest the internet these days.

They can mock her cause they don't like her name for all I care, as for me she hadn't done much of anything worth my claws so I kept them, for the most part, sheathed. I'm not anyones fucking parents so I could care less about their conduct at greeting the next in a long line of the same people with the same story and the same justifications, and the same utter and complete lack of evidence. But your implication that the only reason people get mocked is because they don't agree with what's popular is just ridiculous.



(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  That's not what happened. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you simply remember the events incorrectly rather than that you're straight-up lying about them.
And you are correct sir, I thought she had mentioned it in a subsequent post but on rereading her posts that was not the case. I apologize for my error. It doesn't affect the legitimacy of my post to her as she considered herself a critical thinker and was clearly and demonstrably not. Not an excuse for sloppy research though so you have my thanks.
I still think claiming to be a critical thinker while posting a whole bunch of examples where you very clearly didn't apply critical thinking is inviting mockery way more than the fact she is not an Athiest.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  The user in question made a polite and respectful post in the Introduction section of the forum, a place meant for welcoming new users rather than debating them,
I didn't join the conversation until after it had been moved so I don't really care too much.



(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Your claim that she told us that she's a critical thinker 'several times' and then proceeded to voice opinions and beliefs that exhibit a lack of critical thinking is patently false in light of those facts.
Agreed. She still claimed to be a critical thinker and demonstrated the opposite however.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Here's a number of mocking and belittling responses that were made on the basis of her introduction post alone:...
In a couple of these, you seem to have mistaken criticism and asking questions for mockery.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Do you need me to go on or are you seriously going to continue arguing that she deserved to be treated this way based on her completely civil opening post?
I honestly don't give a fuck if a post is civil in tone or not, I care about its content. Being civil while you post nonsense doesn't and shouldn't protect you from criticism or derision. If her post was civil and polite and the content was about how African-Americans aren't actually people, or how the world was clearly flat would she deserve to be mocked? I'd say so, though others might not.
She is a Christian who came to an Athiest forum to share her "conversion" from Atheism to Christianity, a story that she hasn't evaluated critically at all, that you could play fallacy bingo with, and the worst treatment you have on offer is someone called her full of shit and posted a cat fail meme? Really man? That is some translucently thin skin.

For fuck sake, I'm a vicious cunt to a lot of people and even I wasn't mocking her. She thought she was being mocked when Stevil asked her the most glaringly obvious questions that need to be asked.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Her last comment before leaving the forum should have evoked a modicum of self-reflection in the bullies who ganged up on her....
Can't handle the heat don't step into the fire. She is a big girl and if she's gonna come to a part of the freaking internet where the default position of people is not accepting religious claims without evidence and then provide a bunch of religious claims with no evidence and cry when people make fun of her for it when we deal with this shit on a near daily basis then she is either nieve or stupid and she wouldn't have lasted long here anyway. She considered asking legitimate questions a form of mockery for fuck sake.

(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  All that is not even to mention how arrogant the notion that theists can't be critical thinkers is.
You can save your outrage for someone else mate because as far as I'm concerned if you suspend your critical thinking to maintain your religious beliefs then you are not a critical thinker, you are cherry picking where you will apply it and where you won't. That doesn't mean you are not capable of critical thought, but you're not consistent with it and thus I don't consider the label of "critical thinker" as applying to you any more than I consider the label of "honourable man" to men who only hit their wives when they are angry.


(12-01-2017 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  How full of yourself does one have to be to believe that when there are numerous theists in the world who are far more educated, intelligent and accomplished than any member of this forum could ever hope to be?
You can be educated and intelligent and not apply critical thinking consistently, and be thus not what I would call a critical thinker. If you are a theist and your successful, intelligent, and educated but you won't apply the same rules of critical evaluations to your religious beliefs that you do to your non-religious beliefs then no you are not a critical thinker in my book. Critical thinking and scepticism is just a hobby for you at that point, something you pick up and put down as it suits you.
I'm curious, besides Aliza and KC, can you name me others? You say that they are "just to name two" but I can't think of anybody else off the top of my head. Care to help me out?

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12-01-2017, 11:07 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 10:58 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I'm curious, besides Aliza and KC, can you name me others? You say that they are "just to name two" but I can't think of anybody else off the top of my head. Care to help me out?
Jason, gent working towards becoming a Military Chaplin, is a good chap and I've had several friendly exchanges with him. Stand up guy him. Thumbsup

Honestly, as long as they don't try and maintain their belief through lying or more generic dishonesty I'm fine with them, even if I think their religious views are not fine.

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12-01-2017, 11:18 PM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(12-01-2017 11:07 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 10:58 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I'm curious, besides Aliza and KC, can you name me others? You say that they are "just to name two" but I can't think of anybody else off the top of my head. Care to help me out?
Jason, gent working towards becoming a Military Chaplin, is a good chap and I've had several friendly exchanges with him. Stand up guy him. Thumbsup

Honestly, as long as they don't try and maintain their belief through lying or more generic dishonesty I'm fine with them, even if I think their religious views are not fine.

Isn't Shai Hulud also a Catholic? He's pretty stand up, plus being a fan of DUNE is always a plus.

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