Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
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27-01-2017, 02:56 AM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2017 03:00 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Are the first responders keeping quiet?

You made me watch that freakin' interview just to have the FDNY guy say that he heard something that sounded like an explosion, because everyone reacted to it, and that it looked like the building came down as if it had been a controlled demolition (oh, and that firefighters lack training to do controlled demolitions)... seriously?

You DO understand, right, that the reason controlled demolitions come down the way they do is because they blow up the same sorts of internal connections, so the vertical structures will break inward and the building will fall under its own weight?

Have you seriously not read the report of the NIST, where they explained exactly which structural elements failed, and why the collapse happened the way it did?

Or do you just link to conspiracy websites and fake news organizations?

(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Did they not find evidence of melted steel beams at ground zero?

*sigh* Do you know what a "bellows" is? What it's used for? It's how blacksmiths get their fires REALLY REALLY HOT, pumping air across fuels that normally don't burn at those temperatures, so they can soften/melt and then work the steel.

When you have a raging fire, fueled first by jet fuel and then by office consumables, WITH THE FUCKING WINDOWS OPEN IN BOTH DIRECTIONS on a building that was being blown by winds from Hurrican Erin, just offshore, you get a bellows effect.

The [edit: previous] fires to which you keep referring did not have any of those compounding factors, including windows blown out on multiple floors, open in both directions, jet fuel setting everything alight almost instantaneously, and winds being driven by an offshore hurricane.

I would be very surprised if I learned that there were not places in the building where the fires reached which had been elevated to those temperatures. The "9/11 Truth" website to which you referred us downplays or ignores all of those elements, when pointing to melted points on the girders. It also ignores the guy they're quoting when he says that the presence of oxidized residue of a thermite-type accelerant does not necessarily demonstrate that there was thermite... a point we keep trying to make to you. (The website bolds all of that paragraph of his quote except for that last sentence, amusingly.)

(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Also Rocket its not a jewish conspiracy. Its just a conspiracy. There is absolutely no need to involve the jews in this yet you did. That's the equivalent of saying a christian 'conspiracy' now maybe you could say an israeli conspiracy and that would be closer on target but really man. Either way I think it would make one sound like a bigot. Its the equivalent of saying the Germans committed the holocaust, just gonna put the responsibility on an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few...

I was just referring to WD's mockery of you. Your conspiracy theories sound exactly like the people who claim Jews run the world and secretly pull the strings behind everything for some poorly-specified but "clearly" nefarious purpose. Dodgy

(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  More so, I wonder why its so hard for so many people to believe that a government could orchestrate something like this.

You seem to have forgotten that in our original exchanges on similar subjects, I told you I am well aware that our government has demonstrably orchestrated a number of horrible things, most of which I consider war crimes that should have several US leaders in prison for the rest of their lives or dancing the Spandau Ballet. Your suggestion that I am simply trying to defend the US government by reflex is absurd and, frankly, idiotic, given all the things I have said on that topic.

(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Because the government plays the victim? Because they have the conception that it is some kind of huge organization with multiple fail safes to prevent stuff like this from happening (even though one glance at its past history could easily prove this wrong). Or perhaps its the belief that the government is somehow more equal than everyone else, that what they say will always have more weight and credulence to it. Even though man makes the government and the inherent nature of man is flawed. For no man is perfect, and the realm of politics is liars and cunning schemes, should not such men be more suspect? Should not we view them with distrust, and why should we give any more importance to them than say any one among us? That they have some silly little titles? That they sit in a fancy office surrounded by superficial people and items?

It seems to me that the people here are looking up, when they should be gazing straight in front of them. For such men are no more important than you or me, nor are they less important.

What the fuck is wrong with you? The reason I know about the government actions I mentioned above is because our government is REALLY REALLY BAD at keeping secrets.

Does anything people say here give you the impression that we are apologists for the actions of a Republican-led (or any) US government?

Hell, I shudder to think of the amount of time explaining to conservatives on this board that I don't hate the United States, so frequently do I criticize its actions.

Peddle your bullshit psychology somewhere else. You're so wrong about this part that you should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking it, let alone typing it.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-01-2017, 02:57 AM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(27-01-2017 02:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  So you don't know how your proposed method for bringing the towers down is supposed to work but you feel confident to reject the expert investigation and testimony based on your feels.

You're special PsikeyWonder, I'll give you that.

not knowing how it is supposed to work, and how it was done is to different things.

Scholars have debated for decades how the great pyramids were built, indeed they know that however the ancient Egyptians managed to do it they were successful, even though at the time they did not know how it was done exactly. They did have though their speculations as do I. But speculations will not help me sway any of your opinions and so I dislike mentioning them. Its why I don't like responding to fatbaldhobbit, or peebothuhul, most of their questions are in the range of speculation.

(27-01-2017 02:42 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  Why not speak out on a credited unbiased news source then if it's so important?

unbiased news source?

What world do you live in?
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27-01-2017, 03:10 AM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(27-01-2017 02:56 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Are the first responders keeping quiet?

You made me watch that freakin' interview just to have the FDNY guy say that he heard something that sounded like an explosion, because everyone reacted to it, and that it looked like the building came down as if it had been a controlled demolition (oh, and that firefighters lack training to do controlled demolitions)... seriously?

You DO understand, right, that the reason controlled demolitions come down the way they do is because they blow up the same sorts of internal connections, so the vertical structures will break inward and the building will fall under its own weight?

Have you seriously not read the report of the NIST, where they explained exactly which structural elements failed, and why the collapse happened the way it did?

Or do you just link to conspiracy websites and fake news organizations?

(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Did they not find evidence of melted steel beams at ground zero?

*sigh* Do you know what a "bellows" is? What it's used for? It's how blacksmiths get their fires REALLY REALLY HOT, pumping air across fuels that normally don't burn at those temperatures, so they can soften/melt and then work the steel.

When you have a raging fire, fueled first by jet fuel and then by office consumables, WITH THE FUCKING WINDOWS OPEN IN BOTH DIRECTIONS on a building that was being blown by winds from Hurrican Erin, just offshore, you get a bellows effect.

The [edit: previous] fires to which you keep referring did not have any of those compounding factors, including windows blown out on multiple floors, open in both directions, jet fuel setting everything alight almost instantaneously, and winds being driven by an offshore hurricane.

I would be very surprised if I learned that there were not places in the building where the fires reached which had been elevated to those temperatures. The "9/11 Truth" website to which you referred us downplays or ignores all of those elements, when pointing to melted points on the girders. It also ignores the guy they're quoting when he says that the presence of oxidized residue of a thermite-type accelerant does not necessarily demonstrate that there was thermite... a point we keep trying to make to you. (The website bolds all of that paragraph of his quote except for that last sentence, amusingly.)

(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Also Rocket its not a jewish conspiracy. Its just a conspiracy. There is absolutely no need to involve the jews in this yet you did. That's the equivalent of saying a christian 'conspiracy' now maybe you could say an israeli conspiracy and that would be closer on target but really man. Either way I think it would make one sound like a bigot. Its the equivalent of saying the Germans committed the holocaust, just gonna put the responsibility on an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few...

I was just referring to WD's mockery of you. Your conspiracy theories sound exactly like the people who claim Jews run the world and secretly pull the strings behind everything for some poorly-specified but "clearly" nefarious purpose. Dodgy

(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  More so, I wonder why its so hard for so many people to believe that a government could orchestrate something like this.

You seem to have forgotten that in our original exchanges on similar subjects, I told you I am well aware that our government has demonstrably orchestrated a number of horrible things, most of which I consider war crimes that should have several US leaders in prison for the rest of their lives or dancing the Spandau Ballet. Your suggestion that I am simply trying to defend the US government by reflex is absurd and, frankly, idiotic, given all the things I have said on that topic.

(27-01-2017 02:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Because the government plays the victim? Because they have the conception that it is some kind of huge organization with multiple fail safes to prevent stuff like this from happening (even though one glance at its past history could easily prove this wrong). Or perhaps its the belief that the government is somehow more equal than everyone else, that what they say will always have more weight and credulence to it. Even though man makes the government and the inherent nature of man is flawed. For no man is perfect, and the realm of politics is liars and cunning schemes, should not such men be more suspect? Should not we view them with distrust, and why should we give any more importance to them than say any one among us? That they have some silly little titles? That they sit in a fancy office surrounded by superficial people and items?

It seems to me that the people here are looking up, when they should be gazing straight in front of them. For such men are no more important than you or me, nor are they less important.

What the fuck is wrong with you? The reason I know about the government actions I mentioned above is because our government is REALLY REALLY BAD at keeping secrets.

Does anything people say here give you the impression that we are apologists for the actions of a Republican-led (or any) US government?

Hell, I shudder to think of the amount of time explaining to conservatives on this board that I don't hate the United States, so frequently do I criticize its actions.

Peddle your bullshit psychology somewhere else. You're so wrong about this part that you should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking it, let alone typing it.

grasping at straws now.

In every response before this you tried to debunk my claims, now you're using hurricane erin, something I've never heard of before especially used in this context as a cause for a 'bellowing' effect on the twin towers (never heard that before either)

Then you just skipped over the evidence for the nanothermite.

So basically what you're saying is that you have nothing to debunk this.





YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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27-01-2017, 03:13 AM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
Ugh, I have mentioned the open windows in several of my replies, you dishonest fuck. What did you think I was mentioning them for-- scenery?

And there is no evidence of "nanothermite" (which just means extremely finely-ground regular thermite, so it reacts more quickly) that is not congruent with what we have already explained to you.

Your professor who is making the claims of nanothermite is a hack, and has been found so by a court of law in his home country... and don't even try to claim the Dutch are protecting the United States on this one.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-01-2017, 03:14 AM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(27-01-2017 02:57 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 02:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  So you don't know how your proposed method for bringing the towers down is supposed to work but you feel confident to reject the expert investigation and testimony based on your feels.

You're special PsikeyWonder, I'll give you that.

not knowing how it is supposed to work, and how it was done is to different things.

Scholars have debated for decades how the great pyramids were built, indeed they know that however the ancient Egyptians managed to do it they were successful, even though at the time they did not know how it was done exactly. They did have though their speculations as do I. But speculations will not help me sway any of your opinions and so I dislike mentioning them. Its why I don't like responding to fatbaldhobbit, or peebothuhul, most of their questions are in the range of speculation.

(27-01-2017 02:42 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  Why not speak out on a credited unbiased news source then if it's so important?

unbiased news source?

What world do you live in?

There are plenty not nearly as biased as Info Wars, it is conspiracy central and has been know to be wrong about many things.

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27-01-2017, 03:20 AM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2017 03:30 AM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(27-01-2017 03:13 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Ugh, I have mentioned the open windows in several of my replies, you dishonest fuck. What did you think I was mentioning them for-- scenery?

And there is no evidence of "nanothermite" (which just means extremely finely-ground regular thermite, so it reacts more quickly) that is not congruent with what we have already explained to you.

Your professor who is making the claims of nanothermite is a hack, and has been found so by a court of law in his home country... and don't even try to claim the Dutch are protecting the United States on this one.

The dutch are protecting the united states on this one.





I'll let you off the hook rocket, but can you answer me one thing?

Do you think its even remotely possible that this actually all could have been a carefully planned and executed conspiracy committed by the CIA?

(27-01-2017 03:14 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  There are plenty not nearly as biased as Info Wars, it is conspiracy central and has been know to be wrong about many things.

True, but Info Wars is probably the most persistent, that is why it is conspiracy central because they get out there with dogged determination. And yeah they're going to be wrong sometimes, that's just how conspiracies theories. They're not all going to be right, especially if you're reacting to recent event conspiracy theroies like with the Boston Bombings. I remember Info Wars was all over that one. And the problem with that is when things happen so quickly like that it doesn't give you a whole lot of time to check your facts. Still though as a news source for conspiracies it has to jump on things like that because that's what its audience wants to know about. They want to know if the government was involved and if it was involved how it was involved.

The infowars audience is extremely critical about the government, perhaps even to critical, but at least they are getting the side of the argument that many of you here don't seem to be looking for. Two sides to a story and all that.
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27-01-2017, 03:24 AM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(27-01-2017 03:20 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I'll let you off the hook rocket, but can you answer me one thing?

Do you think its even remotely possible that this actually all could have been a carefully planned and executed conspiracy committed by the CIA?

Off the hook for WHAT you idiot? Calling out your bullshit?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-01-2017, 03:35 AM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(27-01-2017 03:20 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Do you think its even remotely possible that this actually all could have been a carefully planned and executed conspiracy committed by the CIA?

Of course it's possible. The CIA pulls bullshit (usually not on that kind of scale) all the time. But the evidence is much more simply explained, and without the need for all these extraneous factors that call for some really wild explanations and universal coverups-- as WD tried to explain to you-- and without anyone blowing it wide open in a fit of conscience (a la Chelsea Manning).

It's too risky for the CIA... they'd be shut down immediately and permanently, if such a thing was ever discovered.

Killing people overseas to support US interests is something most Americans will look the other way for... but if it was ever discovered that the CIA deliberately killed Americans (including hundreds of police and firefighters trying to save others) for political purposes, they'd be lynched. Literally, everyone involved would be sent to prison for the rest of their lives, if they were lucky. There is absolutely nothing to be gained for the CIA by risking such an operation. No benefit to the USA outweighs the damage that would be done if discovered, as so many of their overseas operations have been in the past.

The simple explanation fits much better: terrorists with nothing to lose attacked (successfully, this time) the predominant symbol of US global capitalism, for which they blame (and arguably, rightly so) the troubles facing them in their little corner of the world. Our inept government bungled the information that warned of the attack because agencies at the time did a poor job of passing information to the other agencies, and the attacks were of a type that exploited a weakness no one had really considered before-- the combination of the impact, fuel fire, and wind-blown structure fire on a building held up by 50-year-old metal beams. The internal joists and cross-beams failed, pulling sideways on the vertical columns to trigger their simultaneous failure, and the buildings collapsed inward/downward in the same way (and for the same physical reason) as a controlled detonation, which targets the same type of support joists.

And, just as those religious crazies wanted, the US went batshit insane and started a war that pretty much guaranteed another couple of generations of radicalized young recruits for them to harvest into their violent and backward version of Islam.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-01-2017, 03:38 AM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2017 04:08 AM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
(27-01-2017 03:35 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 03:20 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Do you think its even remotely possible that this actually all could have been a carefully planned and executed conspiracy committed by the CIA?

Of course it's possible. The CIA pulls bullshit (usually not on that kind of scale) all the time. But the evidence is much more simply explained, and without the need for all these extraneous factors that call for some really wild explanations and universal coverups-- as WD tried to explain to you-- and without anyone blowing it wide open in a fit of conscience (a la Chelsea Manning).

It's too risky for the CIA... they'd be shut down immediately and permanently, if such a thing was ever discovered.

Killing people overseas to support US interests is something most Americans will look the other way for... but if it was ever discovered that the CIA deliberately killed Americans (including hundreds of police and firefighters trying to save others) for political purposes, they'd be lynched. Literally, everyone involved would be sent to prison for the rest of their lives, if they were lucky. There is absolutely nothing to be gained for the CIA by risking such an operation. No benefit to the USA outweighs the damage that would be done if discovered, as so many of their overseas operations have been in the past.

The simple explanation fits much better: terrorists with nothing to lose attacked (successfully, this time) the predominant symbol of US global capitalism, for which they blame (and arguably, rightly so) the troubles facing them in their little corner of the world. Our inept government bungled the information that warned of the attack because agencies at the time did a poor job of passing information to the other agencies, and the attacks were of a type that exploited a weakness no one had really considered before-- the combination of the impact, fuel fire, and wind-blown structure fire on a building held up by 50-year-old metal beams. The internal joists and cross-beams failed, pulling sideways on the vertical columns to trigger their simultaneous failure, and the buildings collapsed inward/downward in the same way (and for the same physical reason) as a controlled detonation, which targets the same type of support joists.

And, just as those religious crazies wanted, the US went batshit insane and started a war that pretty much guaranteed another couple of generations of radicalized young recruits for them to harvest into their violent and backward version of Islam.

Great. You are now a conspiracy theorist agnostic.

Sometimes the simplest explanation isn't always the right explanation. Otherwise we would all be satisfied with 'god did it'.

Although technically you're already a conspiracy theorist either way, I mean if you believe terrorists did it then that counts as a conspiracy theory. Because there were two or more people acting together to commit crime. And if you're looking for a conspiracy that is vouched for by a president the former president of italy vouched for 911. Although even with 'official status' the 'terrorists did it' is really just the theory purported by the government. So even with official status it is still a conspiracy theory, just the 'official' theory on the conspiracy.
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27-01-2017, 03:56 AM
RE: Questioning The Intangible Versus Questioning the Tangible
Oh. I've been talking to a crazy person. My mistake.

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