Questioning Veridicanism...
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16-12-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
(16-12-2014 07:43 PM)Pointwithinacircle Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 03:01 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  (6) Jesus seems to have pushed pacifism in the main.
Actually, I cannot be sure if this point is correct, but it is one to which I have devoted considerable thought. Of course we will never know the truth, 2000 years of "crafting the message" or as I like to say "religious spin doctoring" would be enough to cast the message in any form they like. (also, given the number of Christians in this country my opinion outweighed by about 25,000,000 to one.)

So here is a thought on pacifism for you. We are told that Jesus said we should "turn the other cheek". For roughly 100 generations we have been told this means that if someone hurts us we should ask politely if they would like to hurt us again. Now if I wanted to control the masses and make them docile this is exactly what I would tell them also. But there is another way to interpret this phrase that the church never discusses.

Imagine a cowboy movie where John Wayne is sitting in a barroom and some young punk comes up slaps him. John stands up, looks the punk in the eye, and says "You wanna do that again?" John has just offered his other cheek, but not in some weak pacifistic sense of the word. His actions say "I haven't beaten you down because I think maybe you made a mistake and you won't do it again". There is some real forgiveness going on in his actions but not from weakness, It comes from a place of strength.

I think turning the other cheek is a warning. It means "I forgave you once, don't do it again". Of course the only church that I could start with that interpretation is the Church of Rambo, Or maybe The Divine Ascension of the Expendables. But that probably won't happen. After all, my opinion is outnumbered by twenty-five million to one.

Actually he wasn't totally passive.
Allegedly he passed a knife to an apostle just prior to his arrest: whipped the money changers in the temple, and spoke of taking up one's sword and following him.....hardly passive.
A total passivity would have seen Christianity disappear very quickly.
As an ideal, sensibly applied, there seems to be a place for not jumping the gun though.
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16-12-2014, 08:15 PM
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
(16-12-2014 03:29 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Did we really need a thread dedicated to this?

We have hundreds of threads dedicated to questioning the various branches of christianity, this is the same thing another thread dedicated to yet another branch of Christianity.

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17-12-2014, 12:12 AM
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
Should we start a pool on how long it takes Gordon to find this thread?

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17-12-2014, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2014 01:22 PM by Gordon.)
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
(16-12-2014 03:01 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I checked out Gordon'S website and got referred back to TTA.
I did come across 'everyone needs to make up their own religion'
.......shades of girlieman?, and not an unreasonable notion.
It appears that Gordon's new religion is bases on his interpretation of the gospels. along with the denounced writings of Thomas.

As the OP has not asked all that many pertinent questions as to the actual methodology of the new faith I have come up with some questions.

First off, thank you for asking these questions, Mr. Woof. I appreciate the opportunity to answer them in this public forum. I’ll do my best.

Quote:(1) Do you hold that God is perfect, good, all powerful, omniscient,omnipresent,simply for us or is universally such?

I believe God’s nature is monistic. That means I believe the only thing that truly exists is God. Everything else is a modality of that monistic substance. So, yes, God would be all good (because He decides what “good” is). He’s all powerful, because He’s the only power that exists. He’s necessarily omniscient and omnipresent. Is God perfect? Yes, necessarily He is. If He is the only true thing, then His being defines perfection.

None of this comes from an adoration of God, on my part. It comes from the necessary implications of monism.

Quote: (2) Marcion, an early church father taught that Jesus was the real God, not the son of Jehovah,who he held to be an amateur. Is this your position?

Jesus was the Son of Man (that is the hope of mankind), and he was the Son of God (a creation of the Father). He is a uniqe modality of God that human beings have the ability to be “reborn” into.

So, Jesus is not the Father, except in a monistic sense. But he is our revelation of the Father. Because God, the Father, is not something the human mind can contain. We can’t see God the way God is. God is wholly unreachable, except through Christ. Even when I say I talk to God, that’s a misnomer--I talk with the Holy Spirit, which is another modality of God, but that’s another topic.

Please let me know if I answered that question at all. It’s a hard one.

Quote: (3) You mention the physical destruction of Islam. Do you hold this as a precursor to imminent end time?

Islam will only be defeated by those in Christ. Actually, Islam will destroy itself, but it will destroy Christianity from within and without before it does. But this is spiritual warfare. If you were to take and genocide every Muslim, that wouldn’t end Islam. Islam is defeated in the mind of the individual when something better comes along.

The rise of Islam and atheism is part of the disintegration of the Christian Church. What is that called in chemistry when you apply a solution to something and it eats away at what isn’t wanted leaving behind what is wanted. I don’t know the term, but atheism and Islam are those kinds of solutions.

Quote: (4) Do you hold to a trinity notion or similar?

Yes, absolutely. There is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One could expand that to Satan as well, so that wouldn’t be a trinity would it? More of a quad of some sort.


Quote: (5) Have you ever pondered as to why God has chosen you, and come up with any answers.

See, I don’t think He chose me. I think He created me. I look back on my life, and it seems to me if you wanted someone to start a religion (the first of many that will usher in the age of the Second Coming), then you would incarnate a regular person and design their life to be pretty much like mine has been. Even when I was 29 and had a sudden boost in my intellect, that wasn’t something I accomplished or did, thus earning God’s favor. That’s just something that came upon me.

In the end, God could have made anyone to be the first Veridican, and if I don’t do it, He’ll choose someone else.

I have been very open to a relationship with God, but again, that can’t be the reason. I am open to the relationship with God because God allowed me that, and He could have done that with anyone.

I am not a good man. And I’m not going to get into any confessions, but I’m not a good person, and a lot of people hate my guts, and I’ve left a lot of broken things along the way to where I am right now.

So, in answer to your question: God didn’t choose me. I really don’t think He did. I think He created me.

And as a side note, to prove that, a little fun factoid, my astrological birth chart (what is called a natal chart) is the most specific chart I’ve ever seen if you wanted to make a person who would invent a new religion. So, again, it seems I was created, not chosen.

Quote: (6) Jesus seems to have pushed pacifism in the main. How far, if at all, do you value this line of thought?

I don’t think Jesus is a pacifist. Turn the other cheek is a way of gaining god-like power over an opponent. In other words, if you care so little what happens to your body (like the way he went to the cross), then the world has no power over you. Turn the other cheek is all about serious power. Jesus also instructs us to own weapons; he also was known to do what we would consider a terrible act of public violence. He wanted to bring violence and discord to the world, and on and on.

In the age of the second coming, those in Christ will probably be some really bad ass individuals. The ones who aren't blowing shit up will probably be casting spells and divining intelligence. There won’t be any stopping them.

And I’m sorry if you had dreams of a world living in peace. That won’t come until Christ is ruling over the entire planet. And then, in all honesty, there probably won’t be any more children and the human race will come to its designed end.

You could expect to see this beginning in our life time

Quote: (7) Reincarnation was an early Christian belief (refer Jesus's remarks to John the Baptist) till it became anathema. Your position?

Yes. As you said it is supported by the Gospel. And that has to do with hell. If you know about Buddhism, then you know that reincarnation is a type of hell, and the idea is to be free from it. God has many types of hells. Reincarnation is one of them.

Quote: (8) When Jesus cast Legion's devils into the soon to be drowned pigs, I thought it was simply a Jewish thing. Do you have the real reason?

The pigs would not tolerate what human beings tolerate. There are lots of demon possessed people walking around, and they don’t give a shit. From a spiritual perspective it’s like looking at a homeless bum that refuses to clean or shave. Even pigs would not tolerate what we tolerate in ourselves. If we realized the depravity of our spiritual condition, we’d jump off a cliff--or better yet, we’d turn to Christ who would heal us and save us and transform us through re-birth.

Quote: (9) Hell is a thorny subject' what with some devout Christians believing they will be entertained watching the eternally suffering writhe in agony. Is this your position?

I would be entertained to watch those who reject Christ writhing in agony. Why should those pestilent have any mercy shown to them? But I’m not the judge. Jesus Christ is. Even God doesn’t judge, he gives it all to the Son. Whom Jesus saves, he saves; whom he rejects, are utterly rejected. Make no mistake about it; Jesus was clear: believe in him or roast.

But I’m not sure what that roasting is. For me, if God said you have to reincarnate and do it all over again, that would be a terrible punishment for me. That I know I deserve that punishment for my pathetic lack of faith, my pathetic inability to be like Jesus, my overall failure as a decent person, maybe at least the fact that I don’t want to be this way will help me on Judgment Day.

Quote: (10)Jesus said not to caste your pearl before swine, along with shaking off the dust from non believers homes..........Are you breaking those directives?

You aren’t swine and you have welcomed me into your home. The Christians, now, that’s another story...

Again, thanks for letting me answer these questions. Bowing

Ed
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17-12-2014, 01:27 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2015 07:55 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
BTW, there is a lot of stuff all over this forum about Veridicanism. all over the web for that matter. I joined here while the ideas were still developing in my mind. Initially, in 1993 there were 12 tenets that were almost entirely Judeo-Christian. But it has evolved. There is only now one source that speaks for Veridicanism officially and that's [Link removed]

That website will one day be replaced with a book called something like, Veridicanism: A Systematic Theology, written by me.

So, if you want the official scoop on Veridicanism it's at [Link removed].

Thanks.
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17-12-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
Gordon/ I will simply raise issue (1) at this point of time as it is, in my view by far the most complex.
I see the nature of any ideal God, projected or otherwise, as very largely ineffable.
To say God is perfect is to make a quantum leap in faith. Perhaps hope for eternal salvation is felt here. To say that God, based on being the causal factor of humanity, is perfectly good based on power, fails to justify any perceived factor of perfection as we loosely understand the word.
Even if we assume 'end time' to be very close and incorporate many lives in a reincarnationist stance, as opposed to' one life then the judgement', the essence of the game being played out does not appear to truly involve the players; rather it uses them.I say this because any end result is quite obscure. I do not see an empowered God as necessarily synonymous with a perfectly good god. Why should the creating force be kind and loving rather than mean and precocious?
In terms of infinity many things are possible. We know very little, and I see some degree of faith incorporating doubt, not as a bad thing. I do not think that secular reasoning should give way to any intense faith relating to an ineffable cosmos, nor do I think that a contemplative faith need give way to an arrogant atheism.
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17-12-2014, 04:11 PM
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
(16-12-2014 03:30 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 03:29 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Did we really need a thread dedicated to this?

Well it is the philosophy section! Close it if you wish; it's your call!

I started this post as the OP of over 5000 views was in many aspects an abuse/blame fest, and not getting anywhere too fast.
Philosophy can be quite interesting if dealt with in a serious way..............
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17-12-2014, 04:36 PM
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
(17-12-2014 01:17 PM)Gordon Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 03:01 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  (1) Do you hold that God is perfect, good, all powerful, omniscient,omnipresent,simply for us or is universally such?

I believe God’s nature is monistic. That means I believe the only thing that truly exists is God. Everything else is a modality of that monistic substance. So, yes, God would be all good (because He decides what “good” is). He’s all powerful, because He’s the only power that exists. He’s necessarily omniscient and omnipresent. Is God perfect? Yes, necessarily He is. If He is the only true thing, then His being defines perfection.

None of this comes from an adoration of God, on my part. It comes from the necessary implications of monism.

As an extension of that:
If we're god or made of god-stuff or whatever and we're evil/ capable of evil/ have a different understanding of what "good" is, then doesn't that demonstrate that god is not good? Or that the good that god decided on has been inconsistently applied?

Quote:
Quote: (4) Do you hold to a trinity notion or similar?

Yes, absolutely. There is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One could expand that to Satan as well, so that wouldn’t be a trinity would it? More of a quad of some sort.

Wouldn't that apply to everything else in existence in an exactly equal measure?

Also: Quad. *Snerk*

Quote:
Quote: (9) Hell is a thorny subject' what with some devout Christians believing they will be entertained watching the eternally suffering writhe in agony. Is this your position?

I would be entertained to watch those who reject Christ writhing in agony. Why should those pestilent have any mercy shown to them?

Because an infinite punishment for a finite crime is a tautological definition of injustice?

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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17-12-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
(17-12-2014 04:36 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 01:17 PM)Gordon Wrote:  I believe God’s nature is monistic. That means I believe the only thing that truly exists is God. Everything else is a modality of that monistic substance. So, yes, God would be all good (because He decides what “good” is). He’s all powerful, because He’s the only power that exists. He’s necessarily omniscient and omnipresent. Is God perfect? Yes, necessarily He is. If He is the only true thing, then His being defines perfection.

None of this comes from an adoration of God, on my part. It comes from the necessary implications of monism.

As an extension of that:
If we're god or made of god-stuff or whatever and we're evil/ capable of evil/ have a different understanding of what "good" is, then doesn't that demonstrate that god is not good? Or that the good that god decided on has been inconsistently applied?

Quote:Yes, absolutely. There is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One could expand that to Satan as well, so that wouldn’t be a trinity would it? More of a quad of some sort.

Wouldn't that apply to everything else in existence in an exactly equal measure?

Also: Quad. *Snerk*

Quote:I would be entertained to watch those who reject Christ writhing in agony. Why should those pestilent have any mercy shown to them?

Because an infinite punishment for a finite crime is a tautological definition of injustice?

If god's goodness is beyond our cognitive reasoning, then the 'good' is rather a growing and to be experienced,learned from phenomenon, rather than a coercive directive . Perhaps some form of spiritual evolution?
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17-12-2014, 05:48 PM
RE: Questioning Veridicanism...
(17-12-2014 01:17 PM)Gordon Wrote:  For me, if God said you have to reincarnate and do it all over again, that would be a terrible punishment for me.

I can assure you compared to the rest of the world, you are the one getting off light in that arrangement. It's the rest of the world that would be suffering. Drinking Beverage

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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