Questions???
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07-02-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 08:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  No. I mean to point to those not satasified with what is commonly known or accepted to define the limits of what they know or believe. These people are the ones destined for discovery.

However, as you are so wonderfully demonstrating, their discoveries will be meaningless and possibly false without some disciplined method of analysis.
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07-02-2014, 08:14 AM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 08:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  No. I mean to point to those not satasified with what is commonly known or accepted to define the limits of what they know or believe. These people are the ones destined for discovery.

I didn't understand this sentence.

(07-02-2014 08:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote:It would help if there was some kind of established generic method we could rely upon.
God has provided one.

God has provided a generic method for determining truth?

Let's test this!



(07-02-2014 08:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote:I don't know, some kind of process that consisted of observing, formulating hypotheses, testing those hypotheses, formulating theories, testing those theories with further observations.
So in order for you to believe in an ALL Powerful, ALL Knowing God, He has to fit inside your little box of understanding??? And you do not see a problem with this?

You're right. We don't need to observe or experience anything or create theories as to how anything works and look for evidence for and against. We should just believe EVERYTHING all at once. And while we're at it, the law should specify that we are all both guilty and innocent and let's not bother proving otherwise.



(07-02-2014 08:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  Your process is designed to study the static, the dead, the patterned things of this world.

You mean the static, dead patterned things of this world as studied by Biology?


(07-02-2014 08:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  God is Alive,

You mean like the things studied in Biology are alive?
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07-02-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 08:03 AM)Drich Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 07:31 AM)morondog Wrote:  Sleepy Epi...cu..rus...

Come on you bastard. You said you can answer Epicurus. I thought of a new answer for Epicurus by the way, maybe God's a nice guy but just unbelievably incompetent.

goto AF dot org there is 20 pages of material there. I'm busy at the moment.

There "are" 20 pages.

Re "God is alive".
Prove it.
It's not true because you say say, oh uneducated one.
For thousands of years, believers have asserted their deities are "alive".
They were all wrong.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-02-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 07:09 AM)Drich Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 01:17 AM)natachan Wrote:  It occurs to me that I have my answer. You and I have no grounds to proceed because you admit to believing things which are known to be false. I can't. I am unable to live with the cognitive dissonance. You are able to take the bible and believe it because you believe it to be a true account of the real world. I know that it's not, and so I cannot believe.

You have also by your posts on the church and women shown yourself to be either a liar, a misogynist, or both and I would be well advised to stay clear of you.

600 years ago the world was "known" to be flat. Till one day when it wasn't. People were ridiculed for thinking otherwise.

So what changed?

Did the planet suddenly change shape?
-or
Was what was "known to be true" simply wrong?

Your question was not about my ability to discern truth. Your question was about my ability to accept popular thought.

Those who would have answered no to your question are the same type of people who 600 years ago would have thought the earth to be flat, and been happy in their ignorance. Discovery is left to those who can look at what is thought to be truth and venture past it.

In this case, I did this very thing and I found God, or He found me.

600 yrs ago or even 6 days ago there were people who believed the world was flat, in much the same way that people believe that a god or gods exist.

More than 2000 yrs ago Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the world with surprising accuracy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Science is about discerning truth. It's NOT popular thought. When science reaches a consensus about a certain body of work, it's based on the information gained, experiments performed, more tests, more information gained until we have a good model for what seems to match what we observe. As new information is gained, we add that to our existing model making it more accurate.

We have a model of how a car functions and how one can be built and from that we can build a working car. If we discover something new about tire tread or compression rates or a new fuel source, that can dramatically change our model. It doesn't mean that the previous model wasn't useful nor did it mean that it was WRONG. It just means that now we are able to make a more efficient car that is safer on the road.

You have not discovered god. What you have done however is clung to an old idea that is much older than "the world is flat". And you cling to this idea in the face of so much information that we have gained about the world, about the universe, about medicine, about biology and every facet of science the world has. It's like you want to ignore all that we know, in favor of what you want to believe.

That is willful ignorance.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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07-02-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: Questions???
Drich really cannot explain what Faith is. He just can't. I'm not sure why he invites questions.
Faith is faith. There's really no rationale or reasoning behind it try as anyone might to explain it or debate it. Faith is faith.

I'd much rather see Drich just be intellectually honest and say "I cannot explain faith. I believe as I believe." and leave it at that.

**Bible verses are always open to interpretation never mind the fact that that book is (1) just a book regardless if it was 'divinely inspired' and (2) was written by Men......aka Mortal men (therein lies the ultimate fallibility)
**Personal experiences do not count as evidence no matter how many theists wish to believe that they do. Personal experiences don't count with magical rituals, ghosts or a yeti. Just doesn't count - not on an academic or intellectual level.

Faith is faith. Kinda lives in its own realm and that realm and reality really don't blend.
Information, Argumentation and Education are the enemies of faith. Faith requires belief in what cannot be explained nor seen.
Done.

If you want to believe and have faith - fine. So be it. But at least be reasonable. Admit that you believe in something you cannot prove nor explain. You're talking about a GOD for petesake........... there's NO explanation for that. At least be honest. IF not with us...........be honest with yourself.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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07-02-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Questions???
Some of the posts have mentioned the Epicurean Paradox.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

The answer is that God allows evil because he uses it to bring about a greater good. We can see an example of this in the story of Job. God allowed Satan to cause Job to suffer but in the end Job was better off as a result of the suffering he went through.

Like anyone else I don't see how the evil that exists can ultimately result in good but that is because of my human limitations. This earth is only a small part of God's creation and humans are only one kind of intelligent creature that he has made. What goes on here is seen by angels and some of it might be intended for their benefit. Here is what Paul said about this:

Quote:To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
(Ephesians 3:8-10 ESV)

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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07-02-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Questions???
(06-02-2014 01:13 PM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote:How could those people for that century or so have developed a relationship with God without the key?

The question you should be asking is what happened to all the people before that century where they had access to the bible?
(1900 years before the common man had the bible)
In the First two centuries they had the Apstoles themselves and they had thier writtings and the Hebrew scripture to help guide them. Then the 'Church' started to call for all the written material about Jesus (secular and 'religious') and compiled it into the bible. Once this happened Hand written bibles were issued to each region/church. It was from the pulpits that the people were exposed to the writtings and teachings/The key of establishing and maintaining a relationship with God throughout all that time.

I appreciate the answer, but that's not the question I asked. I asked how people came to know God during the time when you mentioned that the scripture was lost. Which goes along with my other question...

Quote:
Quote:How would a Peruvian native develop a relationship with the Spirit?
Same way.. That is why the Church has always sent missionaries.

The reason I mentioned the Peruvians is that there is historical evidence of civilized cultures in Peru going back before Christ. Accordingly, there are about 2000 years of Peruvian cultures that never received the scriptures before the Spaniards came along.

Quote:
Quote:How does an illiterate man develop a relationship with the Spirit?
Through the Hearing, and subsequent doing of God's word. (He goes to church and A/S/K's.)
Then the Holy Spirit indewells that man and writes the word on his heart.

So, the illiterate man has to rely on 4th-hand information for his belief in the word of God (God passing the word to the author, interpreted by someone, read by someone else). There's some pretty good broken telephone going on there.

Quote:I believe God is all knowing. and revealed himself to the most righteous man a people would ever have, as He has with the Jews. It was either up to that man to do 'X' or His people to do 'Y' and this man did not or his people did not do 'X/Y' and their relationship with God died there.
-Or- God being all knowing simply knew what would happen if He said or told a people, and just picked the guy/people He knew this whole salvation thing would work through.

So, if that is the case, I take is that you are saying he revealed himself to the Peruvians, Mayans, Chinese, African tribes, etc, through their most righteous man. Their most righteous man didn't listen, or wasn't listened to by his people (because they never accepted Christianity into their cultures) and God left it at that? So, because of the fault of one man, the rest of that culture for generations beyond never heard the word of God?

If I read the last part right, it also sounds like you are saying God only revealed himself to people he knew would be saved by it. But, didn't God give us free will? Didn't the rest of those people deserve the chance to make their choice? And, how do you fault the ones who never had the chance?

This brings me back to the question of: Why would God put his word into such a frail form? As has apparently happened here, the written (or spoken) word can be suppressed. Why not put his word in a form that cannot be suppressed by other men?

Quote:Now without know what brand of Christianity was... What if your particular brand/beliefs were not necessarily wrong, but let's say would foster a less than ideal belief/relationship with God than what you were capable of or was asking for? If you were in His position would you confirm the young believer's belief in a flawed system, or would you have him rebuild based on a one on one relationship?

What did Jesus have to say about this?
Are you familiar with the Parable of the wise and foolish builders?
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

The 'house' we are building is your religion, your faith, your beliefs, or whatever you called you walk with God.
If you built your 'house' on the things of religion, the saying, rules and practices, then this is the same as building your house on the sand.

So when you asked God for a closer connection He answered your prayers and sent the rains which came and took your house away, Giving you oppertunity to rebuild on the Rock as Jesus puts it. That is, if you were FAITHFUL to what you have been given. Because It takes a large measure of humility to persue Christ after just about everything has been washed away/taken, and one is left with little more than a mustard seed.

If you truly want to know God continue to Ask Seek and Knock as outlined in Luke 11. To me it sounds as if you are pretty close to getting what you started looking for way back when.. Just honor and be faithful to what He give or shows you.

I spent most of my youth in a Bretheren church. I also spent a period in an Anglican church and a Pentacostal church. My brother is a member of a Wesleyan church that I have also been to several times.

As for the parable, I have definitely heard it before. The problem is that it doesn't apply in this scenario. The parable is to teach people to build their spiritual house on the solid foundation of the word of Christ. All of the churches I went to followed the word of Christ.

If any of the churches misinterpreted the word of Christ, why would the solution be for God to ignore me and hope that I find the right one before running out of time? I was knocking on the door. Even if I was accidentally knocking on a window, I thought that the point was the knocking. Not everyone is going to figure out the right answer by themselves. Like you said yourself, no one can know of God except as is revealed through the Spirit. If I knocked on a window instead of a door, why wouldn't the Spirit answer and lead me to the front doorstep?

If the Spirit answered it wouldn't be confirming my belief in a wrong sect of Christianity, because all human teachings are fallible anyways. The only perfect teaching is through the Spirit, so why didn't the Spirit answer me when I sought to learn and turn me towards the correct sect?

Quote:Look at my work here just with you. None of what I have said to you was prepackaged for me. everything I have shared with you came from personal study and revelation.. (Actually revelation came first then the study to back it all up.) Turning your mind off and having faith is apart of that brand of Christianity you must have been apart of that God was not willing to support, by confirming Himself to you through them. God appearently knows that you have it in you(as well as the rest of the people here comming from your type of situation) to A/S/k and find him that way.. the only question is do you all have the humility to plant that mustard seed where He told you to plant it?
Or will you simply do things your way..

If you humble yourself before God He Will Lift you up.

You are wrong, everything you have said is just a variation of something that was prepackaged for you. In fact, that was the point of much of what you said. It was prepackaged in the Bible. Your personal study was of the Bible. I don't know where your revelation came from, but while it may help you, it does nothing for me.

The problem is that you are working backwards. Your first principle is "The Bible is true and is the divine word of God." But, you weren't there when it was written, you can't judge it's accuracy by talking to it's authors. Even if you could talk to the authors you wouldn't know for sure it their revelations were truly the word of God or the word of demons.

Take this as a thought experiment: You mentioned before that you know that your revelation comes from the holy spirit and not a demon because the words of the spirit are consistent with the Bible. You also admit that other religions were founded based on revelations from higher beings, but dismiss them as being demons, and not the spirit. So, what if the words in the Christian Bible are actually not the product of divine inspiration, but are the product of demon inspiration? Then the words you hear in your inspiration could be from a demon, as they would be consistent with the demonic inspiration that resulted in the original words in the Bible that you use to authenticate your inspiration. How do you know this not to be the case?

After all, you write off the divine inspiration of the muslims and mormons as being inspired by demons. They both claim that their holy books were inspired by, or were delivered directly by God. I'm sure muslims and mormons get divine inspiration that is consistent with their holy books. You write it off as being from demonic sources, but your proof on that depends entirely on what book you believe is the accurate word of God.

Quote:If your idea of 'god' simply expects you to know what he wants, based on the time of year acorns fall,or which way the wind blows, then know it is not the God of the bible, and you should probably want to stay away from this psycopath.

No, it is absolutely not the God of the Bible. That's why I call myself a deist and not a Christian anymore.

It goes far beyond the time of the year that the acorns fall. It is about understanding that everything is made for a purpose. It is about understanding the way everything works together and figuring out what that means.

How do we figure out that punching someone else is immoral? We feel the pain when someone punches us, or we see the pain on someone else's face when we see them get hit. We use medical science to study the human body to determine the long term effects of punching someone. Then we take all that data and combine it with the intellect with which the creator has endowed us to come to our conclusion. That intellect comes up with other questions, such as, was the punch provoked? How did the fight start? Was the punch intentional? Was it a consensual UFC fight, or was it a school bully picking on a smaller kid?

You can't limit the universe to acorns falling from a tree, but even something as innocuous as that can be a gift from the creator. Assuming the story is true, Newton discovered gravity by getting pegged in the head by an apple. Studying the universal effect that causes objects to fall (gravity) lead to untold other discoveries throughout history. It led us to learn about how planets interact with each other, and led us to learn how to defy gravity to fly, or even to leave our planet and travel to our moon (opening up even more paths for discovery).

That conception of a creator is one who gives us the tools to be able to figure morality out for ourselves, and also gives us the tools to be able to improve our quality of life through our own ingenuity and technology. I would certainly be intrigued to hear why you would dismiss such a God as a psychopath.
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07-02-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 10:11 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The answer is that God allows evil because he uses it to bring about a greater good.

This doesn't resolve anything. If you say he wants good, and is omnipotent, then he can have greater good without the need for evil. On the other hand, if you think god *needs* evil to bring about greater good, then he is clearly not omnipotent.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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07-02-2014, 10:24 AM
RE: Questions???
Think I'll just post this is ALL if Drich's threads:

Drich really cannot explain what Faith is. He just can't. I'm not sure why he invites questions.
Faith is faith. There's really no rationale or reasoning behind it try as anyone might to explain it or debate it. Faith is faith.

I'd much rather see Drich just be intellectually honest and say "I cannot explain faith. I believe as I believe." and leave it at that.

**Bible verses are always open to interpretation never mind the fact that that book is (1) just a book regardless if it was 'divinely inspired' and (2) was written by Men......aka Mortal men (therein lies the ultimate fallibility)
**Personal experiences do not count as evidence no matter how many theists wish to believe that they do. Personal experiences don't count with magical rituals, ghosts or a yeti. Just doesn't count - not on an academic or intellectual level.

Faith is faith. Kinda lives in its own realm and that realm and reality really don't blend.
Information, Argumentation and Education are the enemies of faith. Faith requires belief in what cannot be explained nor seen.
Done.

If you want to believe and have faith - fine. So be it. But at least be reasonable. Admit that you believe in something you cannot prove nor explain. You're talking about a GOD for petesake........... there's NO explanation for that. At least be honest. IF not with us...........be honest with yourself.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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07-02-2014, 12:04 PM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 07:09 AM)Drich Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 01:17 AM)natachan Wrote:  It occurs to me that I have my answer. You and I have no grounds to proceed because you admit to believing things which are known to be false. I can't. I am unable to live with the cognitive dissonance. You are able to take the bible and believe it because you believe it to be a true account of the real world. I know that it's not, and so I cannot believe.

You have also by your posts on the church and women shown yourself to be either a liar, a misogynist, or both and I would be well advised to stay clear of you.

600 years ago the world was "known" to be flat. Till one day when it wasn't. People were ridiculed for thinking otherwise.

So what changed?

Did the planet suddenly change shape?
-or
Was what was "known to be true" simply wrong?

Your question was not about my ability to discern truth. Your question was about my ability to accept popular thought.

Those who would have answered no to your question are the same type of people who 600 years ago would have thought the earth to be flat, and been happy in their ignorance. Discovery is left to those who can look at what is thought to be truth and venture past it.

In this case, I did this very thing and I found God, or He found me.
You have this completely backwards. Flat = old thinking. Round = new thinking. God = old thinking. No god = new thinking. It is you who "knows" god to be true and are "simply wrong", you who is happy in your ignorance, and you who is unable to venture past what you think is true. You might as well believe the earth is flat while you're at it. Drinking Beverage

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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