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07-02-2014, 12:21 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2014 02:21 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 07:09 AM)Drich Wrote:  600 years ago the world was "known" to be flat. Till one day when it wasn't. People were ridiculed for thinking otherwise.

So what changed?

Did the planet suddenly change shape?
-or
Was what was "known to be true" simply wrong?

Your question was not about my ability to discern truth. Your question was about my ability to accept popular thought.

Those who would have answered no to your question are the same type of people who 600 years ago would have thought the earth to be flat, and been happy in their ignorance. Discovery is left to those who can look at what is thought to be truth and venture past it.

In this case, I did this very thing and I found God, or He found me.

It is a fallacious argument to dismiss all our modern scientific knowledge because at a time in the past people used to believe things we now know to be false. For one, the comment refutes itself, as by pointing out that in the past we knew less it indicates now we understand more. It’s a statement that makes a case against itself.

Secondly, it’s a false equivalency. A few hundreds, or thousands, of years ago there were people who believed there were dragons, or mermaids, or centaurs, or fairies, or gnomes, or titans. But just because there were some ill-informed people back then does not equate to the scientific knowledge of the time. People who believed in a flat earth were not what we now call scientist. In fact science as a concept did not exist thousands of years ago, and was not even coined until around the 1800s. And around time it was first in use, the modern scientific method was still being honed.

Prior to science being a thing, what people did was philosophy. They were not scientist, rather philosophized about the nature of reality. There was very little empirical work being done in the name of philosophy. Many philosophers believed that the mind was all one needed to discover truths of reality, through thought experiments, or logic or other means like this. But they often failed to bother with checking their conclusions against observations of the actual world. This is where flat earth ideas came from, and this is not science, any more than what you do when you think about the nature of “God” and your theology is. In fact, there is nothing in what you say about these subjects you discuss here that you can check against observations of reality.

There were also other philosophers whose methods more reasonably resembled modern scientific methods. Around 600 B.C.E. the Greek Philosopher, Pythagoras surmised that the earth must be spherical. This was based on an understanding of how shadows are cast on objects, and their relative positions to the light based on empirical observations checked in the real world, and then applied to the shadow of the earth as cast upon the moon. Pythagoras made observations of reality, and made a prediction of a spherical earth. Theologians do not bother with doing this.

Later Eratosthenes, Ptolemy, and many others provided more evidence for the spherical shape of the earth. And eventually, in the 1960s, we even took pictures of it. Theologians accomplished none of these feats using the methods of theology.

As empirical observations of reality became more useful in the natural world, but useless in the theological world, later philosophers divided between natural philosophy and theological philosophy. Natural philosophers made more, and improved, empirical observations, such as for the shape of the earth, improve the accuracy of their knowledge. Theologians never did.

They were doing more of a scientific process than they previously had been doing, but still were not quite what we modernly call science, even though a few were so close to the process they are retroactively referred to as scientist, despite that not exactly being a thing at the time. Eventually a more systematic form of natural philosophy gave way to the actual use of the term science and scientist in the 1800s. Though even these early, official termed, scientist still required refining their methods and honing them to the more fully modern methods we accept as true science today.

Theological, also know as moral, philosophy did not bother with any of this empirical process of making observations of reality. So it’s failed to reveal much of use at all, and can be easily used in malicious ways by those who wish to claim authority by it. Churches, religious and cult leaders, zealots and the like.

But pointing out how little of what we used to know is not pointing out how little we know today. It’s pointing out the amount that we actually do now know today. Because that’s how science works, by building on itself, witling away false notions, and becoming more accurate in the process and our knowledge.

Pointing out that some people in the past believed the earth was flat, is not an argument that the hard won knowledge that what we now know, such as the earth being spherical, is also equally incorrect today as the things we didn’t know in the past. However, much like the flat earth, people did at one time believe in fairies, gnomes, centaurs, gods, angels, demons, leviathans, heaven, hell, ghost, etc…but that does not make any of those things true, and no evidence, unlike for the spherical earth, as been found for those things.

Your argument is, that just because some people once believed a thing doesn’t make it true, and there for what we think we know today is equally plausibly and likely false. But that’s a false equivalency as I’ve demonstrated, as what we know today we know with an ever increasing amount of accuracy and precision though the methods of science.

What you are confusing equivalency of is not of science versus philosophy. What you are confusing equivalency of is the equivalency of the inaccuracy of the theology of the past with theology of today, because your theology has no methods of verifying its conclusion against reality. And I agree, that just because some people once believed a thing in the past, does not make it anymore true, than does it make your belief, in an invisible man in the sky, true. The difference between your invisible man, and the spherical vs. flat earth is one of evidence, not belief. Unless and until you can provide evidence of your invisible sky man, nothing you have to say about him matters.

This is how science works. It makes observations of the natural world, and improves its accuracy of that information, and builds on it over time ever building more accurate models of reality. Your theology fails to even bother to attempt with this, because it is incapable of it.

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07-02-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 08:03 AM)Drich Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 07:31 AM)morondog Wrote:  Sleepy Epi...cu..rus...

Come on you bastard. You said you can answer Epicurus. I thought of a new answer for Epicurus by the way, maybe God's a nice guy but just unbelievably incompetent.

goto AF dot org there is 20 pages of material there. I'm busy at the moment.

You offered, I asked. Now you're blowing me off ? Gimme a one sentence summary. I ain't trawling through AF looking for 20 pages of you, funnily enough it doesn't sound like fun.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-02-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 12:21 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Secondly, it’s a false equivalency. A few hundreds, or thousands, of years ago there were people who believed there were dragons, or mermaids, or centaurs, or fairies, or gnomes, or titans.

There still are my friend, according to the Creation Museum anyway...

http://creationmuseum.org/whats-here/exh...n-legends/

BTW I really enjoyed your post, well done.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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07-02-2014, 08:17 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2014 08:24 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 07:09 AM)Drich Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 01:17 AM)natachan Wrote:  It occurs to me that I have my answer. You and I have no grounds to proceed because you admit to believing things which are known to be false. I can't. I am unable to live with the cognitive dissonance. You are able to take the bible and believe it because you believe it to be a true account of the real world. I know that it's not, and so I cannot believe.

You have also by your posts on the church and women shown yourself to be either a liar, a misogynist, or both and I would be well advised to stay clear of you.

600 years ago the world was "known" to be flat.


By YOUR religion. The Greeks, however, knew that it was a spheroid long before that.


Quote:Till one day when it wasn't. People were ridiculed for thinking otherwise.

So what changed?

Did the planet suddenly change shape?
-or
Was what was "known to be true" simply wrong?


What changed is that superstitious asshats like YOU were finally forced BY PEOPLE WHO STOOD BY EVIDENCE to admit that it was NOT flat.


Quote:Your question was not about my ability to discern truth. Your question was about my ability to accept popular thought.

YOUR people -- superstitious assholes like you -- were the ones pushing the "popular thought" that the world was flat. Because, JUST LIKE YOU, the fact that the world was NOT flat DESTROYED the claims of your superstitious fairy tales.


Quote:Those who would have answered no to your question are the same type of people who 600 years ago would have thought the earth to be flat, and been happy in their ignorance.

INCORRECT. Those who claimed the world was flat were clinging to their superstitions JUST LIKE YOU, AND TO THE VERY SAME BOOK OF SUPERSTITIONS YOU CLING TO TODAY, happy in their (and your) ignorance.


Quote: Discovery is left to those who can look at what is thought to be truth and venture past it.

Yes, and that is how we realized that the planet is round and not flat like YOUR IDIOTIC SUPERSTITIONS claim it is.

Quote:In this case, I did this very thing and I found God, or He found me.


What you found was deep, dark delusion, nothing more.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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08-02-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 10:11 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Some of the posts have mentioned the Epicurean Paradox.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

The answer is that God allows evil because he uses it to bring about a greater good. We can see an example of this in the story of Job. God allowed Satan to cause Job to suffer but in the end Job was better off as a result of the suffering he went through.

Like anyone else I don't see how the evil that exists can ultimately result in good but that is because of my human limitations. This earth is only a small part of God's creation and humans are only one kind of intelligent creature that he has made. What goes on here is seen by angels and some of it might be intended for their benefit. Here is what Paul said about this:

Quote:To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
(Ephesians 3:8-10 ESV)

dude start your own thread that is not cool.
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08-02-2014, 11:14 PM
RE: Questions???
Hey, what about this:

(07-02-2014 10:11 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Some of the posts have mentioned the Epicurean Paradox.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

The answer is that God allows evil because he uses it to bring about a greater good. We can see an example of this in the story of Job. God allowed Satan to cause Job to suffer but in the end Job was better off as a result of the suffering he went through.

Like anyone else I don't see how the evil that exists can ultimately result in good but that is because of my human limitations. This earth is only a small part of God's creation and humans are only one kind of intelligent creature that he has made. What goes on here is seen by angels and some of it might be intended for their benefit. Here is what Paul said about this:

Quote:To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
(Ephesians 3:8-10 ESV)


[Image: jesus-christ-velvet-painting.jpg]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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08-02-2014, 11:23 PM
RE: Questions???
(08-02-2014 11:04 PM)Drich Wrote:  dude start your own thread that is not cool.



I like Mickey Mouse. What do you guys think about Mickey Mouse?



[Image: sexy-squishy-girls-g2.gif?w=500&h=281]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-02-2014, 12:48 AM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 10:11 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  I appreciate the answer, but that's not the question I asked. I asked how people came to know God during the time when you mentioned that the scripture was lost. Which goes along with my other question..
Again nothing changes. The common man did not have the scripture for 1800 years or so, The Holy Spirit filled the gaps.

Quote:The reason I mentioned the Peruvians is that there is historical evidence of civilized cultures in Peru going back before Christ. Accordingly, there are about 2000 years of Peruvian cultures that never received the scriptures before the Spaniards came along.
Two things, Christ's story does not start with Christ It starts with abraham. 2) We don't know what they knew, because everything of that culture is subject to commitiy vote and interpretation.

Quote:So, the illiterate man has to rely on 4th-hand information for his belief in the word of God (God passing the word to the author, interpreted by someone, read by someone else). There's some pretty good broken telephone going on there.
God only holds us responsiable for what we have been given. "For he who has been given little little is expected. But, from he who has been given much, Much is expected."

Despite what you may have been told we are not all held to the same standard. Or So said Christ Himself.

Quote:So, if that is the case, I take is that you are saying he revealed himself to the Peruvians, Mayans, Chinese, African tribes, etc, through their most righteous man. Their most righteous man didn't listen, or wasn't listened to by his people (because they never accepted Christianity into their cultures) and God left it at that? So, because of the fault of one man, the rest of that culture for generations beyond never heard the word of God?
If that one man was the BEST that society had to offer, and he refused then what does it say about that society? What would be the point?

Quote:If I read the last part right, it also sounds like you are saying God only nrevealed himself to people he knew would be saved by it.
No I said that was an option to revealing Himself to the most righteous of each culture. He could have only spoke to Abram/Abraham because God knew he would be the only one who would listen.

Quote:But, didn't God give us free will?
The Doctrine of 'free will' found in the Roman Catholic church (and subsequently in churches based of the R/C church) is derived from a greek philosphy and not the bible itself.
The bible says we are slaves to sin with only one real choice to make. To seek redemption or not. free will is Never mentioned.

Quote:This brings me back to the question of: Why would God put his word into such a frail form?
You mean the Holy Spirit? which is God, which to you is a 'frail form?'

Quote:As has apparently happened here, the written (or spoken) word can be suppressed.
Then why hasn't it? Men have tried. That's what the darkages was all about. Suppressing the God's word, and grabbing power. Even so, our best efforts have failed.

Quote:Why not put his word in a form that cannot be suppressed by other men?
Like having the Holy Spirit write it on your heart?

Quote:I spent most of my youth in a Bretheren church. I also spent a period in an Anglican church and a Pentacostal church. My brother is a member of a Wesleyan church that I have also been to several times.

As for the parable, I have definitely heard it before. The problem is that it doesn't apply in this scenario. The parable is to teach people to build their spiritual house on the solid foundation of the word of Christ. All of the churches I went to followed the word of Christ.
Then you should not have any problem telling what that is... "The word of Christ." Or we can save some time and possiable some hurt feelings and both agree that the 'word of Christ' as you put it. is not found in an extrabiblical church doctrine, founding church father philosophy, nor creed or tradition. So take all that off the table and what does one have left? The Word of the Holy Spirit written on your heart and the bible to confirm... So what does the Holy Spirit tell you, and what is the book Chapter and verse to confirm?

(You don't have to answer, but I will if you like) I said all of that, to point out that God is not a respector of the 'religious' crap of man. Again all of the religious stuff you would have learned from those above mentioned churches is the House You built that got washed away. It is the frame work, the drywall, the fixtures, the flooring, the A/C it is everything except the foundation.

Now I know you think you know this already but hear me.

I could build an identical house using all the same materials doing Exactly the same work (meaning we could goto the same church and perform the same works) THAT is the house. It is Our religious expressions. The only difference? one is based off the religious understandings and traditions of man, while the other is built on the Rock of Christ. We could have been twins and physically lived identical lives concerning our religious works. Yet one still build his house on the rock and the Other on the sand. Religion is not the goal/key here.

Do you know the difference between a follower of Jesus and religion? a follower of Jesus and any brand of Christianity?

Quote:If any of the churches misinterpreted the word of Christ, why would the solution be for God to ignore me and hope that I find the right one before running out of time?
not sure what you are asking.

Quote: I was knocking on the door.
The 'was' in this statement is the problem. I believe your current situation is apart of the answer to your prayer. You knocked, and God tore your house down (per your prayer). Now you must keep knocking to have Him build you a new one. If you stop, you will not have been faithful to what you have been given and you will loose everything he has done for you. Don't stop knocking! Keep bugging Him till He answers the door or window.

Quote:Even if I was accidentally knocking on a window, I thought that the point was the knocking.
I've always imagined that the Neighbor in Luke 11 went to a window to have a conversation with the man inside who was with his family asleep.

Quote: Not everyone is going to figure out the right answer by themselves.
Christ said no one will. That is why He told us to A/S/K.

Quote:Like you said yourself, no one can know of God except as is revealed through the Spirit. If I knocked on a window instead of a door, why wouldn't the Spirit answer and lead me to the front doorstep?
Absolutly Yes IF you were faithful to what you were doing, in hopes of truly finding God even if it meant walking away from anything of religion you have ever known to do it.

I knocked by beating up Christians, stealing bibles and tormenting them in highschool. That was all I knew to do so I kept doing it till God revealed the truth to me, then I turned from what I knew and followed Him. If you were knocking on a window I was knocking at an neighbor's houseHobo

Quote:If the Spirit answered it wouldn't be confirming my belief in a wrong sect of Christianity, because all human teachings are fallible anyways.
I guess it would completely depend on how he answered you, and your willingness to follow Him where He leads you.

Quote: The only perfect teaching is through the Spirit, so why didn't the Spirit answer me when I sought to learn and turn me towards the correct sect?
One there is not a 'correct sect' We all to one degree or another have it wrong. Two, This is your time in the desert. If you look back at the bible all of the characters mentioned spend time in the desert/with hardship concerning their beliefs/faith. Even Jesus went through the desert. Only those who remain faithful ever find their way out. Again I believe as with everyone here, this stage of your faith is apart of a greater answer to the prayer you had prayed.
again, God allowed the rains to come and wash away your house because that is exactly what you asked for. Now your expected to rebuild on Christ.

Quote:The problem is that you are working backwards. Your first principle is "The Bible is true and is the divine word of God."
Ahh, no. I never said that and if you were reading what i have been writting you would have noticed that I keep point to the holy Spirit first and only us the bible as a way to confirm what your getting is indeed from the H/S.

Quote:But, you weren't there when it was written, you can't judge it's accuracy by talking to it's authors. Even if you could talk to the authors you wouldn't know for sure it their revelations were truly the word of God or the word of demons.
Again, you keep returning to this dry well. Your whole 'new belief system' looks to bring the bible into question therefore justifying your new form of faith... This particular argument of yours is not valid with me. I don't care what or why you believe what you do. Im not here to argue with you about what you believe. I am simply trying to give you an accurate portrayal of the Relationship between the believer, The Holy Spirit and the bible.

So to recap what I have said in the Past. The bible is not a sole source of proof. 'We' have been given/offered The Holy Spirit of God. The deity of God that wrote the bible. This same person of God indwells the believer and writes the scripture on that person's heart. When this happens the bible becomes a simple point of reference. It is the measure that one uses to verify the revelation given him.

Quote:Take this as a thought experiment: You mentioned before that you know that your revelation comes from the holy spirit and not a demon because the words of the spirit are consistent with the Bible. You also admit that other religions were founded based on revelations from higher beings, but dismiss them as being demons, and not the spirit. So, what if the words in the Christian Bible are actually not the product of divine inspiration, but are the product of demon inspiration? Then the words you hear in your inspiration could be from a demon, as they would be consistent with the demonic inspiration that resulted in the original words in the Bible that you use to authenticate your inspiration. How do you know this not to be the case?
Consistancy. God is all knowing. The Devil and his brothers are not. the bible has not changed concerning it predictions and prophecies. (I think I left you a link to the dead sea scrolls and the great isaah scroll.) These other holy books have been changed hundreds if not thousands of times to reflect how history and events have played out.
That said,I know one man's God can be another man's devil. I have sided with the God of the bible no matter what that means, because a rose by anyother name would smell just as sweet.
I often ask: What if for some reason a long time ago the descriptions for Heaven and Hell were confused and Hell was what we would know to be paradise (but no God) and Heaven was a lake of fire, but Jesus, The Father and Spirit lived there. Would you still want to go to Heaven (the lake of fire?)
Without a doubt I would. Why? Because Heaven is not about living in a gated community with crazy expensive brick work on the streets and silver lined homes. It's about being with the God you love with all of your being.

Have you loved anyone so much you would follow them through Hell if it was nessary? It's kinda like that turned up to 12.

Quote:After all, you write off the divine inspiration of the muslims and mormons as being inspired by demons. They both claim that their holy books were inspired by, or were delivered directly by God. I'm sure muslims and mormons get divine inspiration that is consistent with their holy books. You write it off as being from demonic sources, but your proof on that depends entirely on what book you believe is the accurate word of God.
Actually, in both cases neither sources claimed to be God himself nor any part of the God head. One was from an angel (which is what a demon technically is/was) the other was translated from golden plates that could only been seen by one man in a special hat one letter at a time. From a language no one had ever heard of or has seen since. It was also written by White Jews who came to America settled in Ak. and were wiped out by red demon half breeds (the Native Americans)

...So yeah, written by demons written down and passed around by people who want a god they can dictate terms to/for.

Quote:No, it is absolutely not the God of the Bible. That's why I call myself a deist and not a Christian anymore.

It goes far beyond the time of the year that the acorns fall. It is about understanding that everything is made for a purpose. It is about understanding the way everything works together and figuring out what that means.
The acorn thing was my dad he was/is a 'spiritual' person who believes that way.

Quote:How do we figure out that punching someone else is immoral? We feel the pain when someone punches us, or we see the pain on someone else's face when we see them get hit. We use medical science to study the human body to determine the long term effects of punching someone. Then we take all that data and combine it with the intellect with which the creator has endowed us to come to our conclusion. That intellect comes up with other questions, such as, was the punch provoked? How did the fight start? Was the punch intentional? Was it a consensual UFC fight, or was it a school bully picking on a smaller kid?
Actually, this is a very narrow world view. Because really the answer is, we know because pop culture says so. The proof to that statement is that not all cultures view punching people as being wrong. Some cultures view it as making one tough or they even subject boys joining manhood with savage beatings.

Quote:You can't limit the universe to acorns falling from a tree, but even something as innocuous as that can be a gift from the creator. Assuming the story is true, Newton discovered gravity by getting pegged in the head by an apple. Studying the universal effect that causes objects to fall (gravity) lead to untold other discoveries throughout history. It led us to learn about how planets interact with each other, and led us to learn how to defy gravity to fly, or even to leave our planet and travel to our moon (opening up even more paths for discovery).

That conception of a creator is one who gives us the tools to be able to figure morality out for ourselves, and also gives us the tools to be able to improve our quality of life through our own ingenuity and technology. I would certainly be intrigued to hear why you would dismiss such a God as a psychopath.

Because that god opens his world up to chaos. with no descernable direction nor plan for anyone except those who had the capacity to observe all the things you just mentioned. And even then this god has left all of this insight up to indivisual interpretation with no guidelines nor offers any help in any discernible way that is not based off of an indivisual's personal insight..(This creates a whole planey of Mohammads and Joseph Smiths.) Yet still expects something from us? How is man's condition compared with a god that you described not crazy?

Or is that the point? a silent god leaves a lot of blanks. Blanks a 'believer' get to fill on his own with out fear of reprisal. (per some of the teachings of Joey Smith)
If so, I know you gave a list of churches you attended, but do you truly know what attonement is?
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09-02-2014, 12:53 AM
RE: Questions???
(07-02-2014 02:30 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 08:03 AM)Drich Wrote:  goto AF dot org there is 20 pages of material there. I'm busy at the moment.

You offered, I asked. Now you're blowing me off ? Gimme a one sentence summary. I ain't trawling through AF looking for 20 pages of you, funnily enough it doesn't sound like fun.

Because I told you to wait.

The adults are talking now. When we are finished I will post a thread. IF you don't want to wait use my screen name and whatever you wanted to discuss in the search it should come right up
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09-02-2014, 01:06 AM
RE: Questions???
Drich,

Why do you not respond to me?

...
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