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29-03-2017, 02:33 AM
RE: Questions!
(28-03-2017 06:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:You are abusing your position as an unquestioned authority to program your child before they have any natural defenses to help them differentiate fact from fiction.
1)Is it parents duty to teach their children right and wrong?

I'd say yes.

There is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating. Teaching is where you explain the reasoning behind things, and you encourage discussion and critical evaluation of the subject. Indoctrinating is presenting certain things as fact, which must be believed without question.

Teaching right and wrong is, I imagine, usually a matter of encouraging children to get in touch with their empathy. It's talking about the consequences of actions, and why they would be desirable or otherwise. Religion just announces what is right and wrong, in general. This is circular and meaningless. It's an utter cop out to use religion to "teach" right and wrong, and because there is no reasoning behind it, it's much less likely to be convincing except through fear.

It's not possible to critically teach religion to a young child, since it's not possible to even teach it to an adult as forums such as this demonstrate. It's a matter of believing things because people say so.

There are a few things children must accept, for their own safety, that maybe can't be fully explained until they are older. So there is perhaps a minimum level of "indoctrination" that is required for practical reasons. But these are things that will be explained, in detail, and with evidence, once the child is able to understand. This is true whether or not any religious dogma is piled on top. It's a shame this is necessary. Maybe, I don't know, some children are advanced enough to understand and can be given some reasons.

Of course some religious people (the kind that play the tu quoque card like it's going out of fashion) will try and claim that religion is "the same" as the above. But to say that, is to say that God is somehow putting black marks against kids before they've barely learnt how to think, that's going to count in their final judgement or something. I never understand the need for religion in the first place, but this would make it even more scary.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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29-03-2017, 02:55 AM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2017 04:27 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: Questions!
Teaching children is a lot like going to university:

Its not about programming someone with a certian amount of data, although thats what (too) many people think.

Its about learning how to learn. Its about the ability to aquire any know how in the future by yourself

Quote:There are a few things children must accept, for their own safety, that maybe can't be fully explained until they are older. So there is perhaps a minimum level of "indoctrination" that is required for practical reasons. But these are things that will be explained, in detail, and with evidence, once the child is able to understand.


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Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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29-03-2017, 05:50 AM
RE: Questions!
^^^ Just so. My children were taught to obey me without question when, in a certain tone of voice, I told them to stop going where they were going and be still or come to me. This was so that when I saw them (for example) running into traffic they could avoid being killed. I am still amazed at the level of cluelessness and unawareness young children exhibit around traffic, cliffs, and other scenarios of imminent violent death. Even into their twenties, incomplete cause-and-effect circuitry prompts the young to do things like dive off a dam near where I live and regularly break their necks on hidden concrete pilings, despite clear signs elucidating the dangers of doing so. So that's another thing I taught my kids, to reflexively respect DANGER signs and to fear the far-reaching consequences of thinking they don't apply to you.

Theists sometimes riff on this common sense "indoctrination" as if, so far as god is concerned, everything is light years beyond our understanding and a source of great danger. We are to obey god without question "for our own good". Somehow I, a mere puny human, was able to provide a generally safe environment in which my children could explore and "learn to learn", but the deity simply can't pull it off.
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29-03-2017, 06:29 AM
RE: Questions!
(29-03-2017 02:55 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Teaching children is a lot like going to university:

Its not about programming someone with a certian amount of data, although thats what (too) many people think.

Its about learning how to learn. Its about the ability to aquire any know how in the future by yourself

Quote:There are a few things children must accept, for their own safety, that maybe can't be fully explained until they are older. So there is perhaps a minimum level of "indoctrination" that is required for practical reasons. But these are things that will be explained, in detail, and with evidence, once the child is able to understand.


QFT Bowing

Come tell my students that so they'll believe someone who isn't me? There was literally an email last semester, "I don't see why I got a C, I should get an A because I showed up".

Need to think of a witty signature.
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29-03-2017, 07:09 AM
RE: Questions!
(29-03-2017 06:29 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(29-03-2017 02:55 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Teaching children is a lot like going to university:

Its not about programming someone with a certian amount of data, although thats what (too) many people think.

Its about learning how to learn. Its about the ability to aquire any know how in the future by yourself



QFT Bowing

Come tell my students that so they'll believe someone who isn't me? There was literally an email last semester, "I don't see why I got a C, I should get an A because I showed up".

You can tell your student that in my company we call those people "low performers", and that is after the re-labeling for political correctness.

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29-03-2017, 09:32 AM
RE: Questions!
Robvalue Wrote:There is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating. Teaching is where you explain the reasoning behind things, and you encourage discussion and critical evaluation of the subject. Indoctrinating is presenting certain things as fact, which must be believed without question.
What if parents believe that it is right thing to do - to teach their children to live according to their religion? What should they do?

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29-03-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Questions!
(29-03-2017 09:32 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:There is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating. Teaching is where you explain the reasoning behind things, and you encourage discussion and critical evaluation of the subject. Indoctrinating is presenting certain things as fact, which must be believed without question.
What if parents believe that it is right thing to do - to teach their children to live according to their religion? What should they do?
They should align their beliefs with reality.

My mother taught me, in all sincerity, that if you mean well and try your best to do well, everything in my life would turn out alright. She was sincerely wrong. I would have preferred to have my expectations set much better than to assume there is some form of built-in justice in the unfolding of my personal life, or that intentions matter whether they are correct or not. "I didn't mean to hurt you" doesn't mean a thing to someone that you've hurt or disappointed or whatever.

This was partly her magical belief based on her personality characteristics, quite apart from the religious ideations that she was attracted to as a result. None of this made it right or helpful to me.
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29-03-2017, 09:50 AM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2017 09:57 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Questions!
(29-03-2017 09:32 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:There is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating. Teaching is where you explain the reasoning behind things, and you encourage discussion and critical evaluation of the subject. Indoctrinating is presenting certain things as fact, which must be believed without question.
What if parents believe that it is right thing to do - to teach their children to live according to their religion? What should they do?

They should educate themselves on what is objectively best for their child, as far as possible. I'd ask them why it's necessary to force the religious belief into their child's brain. Will they not believe the ideas on their own merits?

If they asked my advice, I'd make the case as to why I think it's a bad idea. I'd say a person who couldn't bear the idea of their children believing any different to themselves shouldn't have them in the first place.

I would hope parents would want their children to think for themselves. Indoctrinating them, into anything, is the opposite of that. I think it's fucked up. But it's their decision.

I hope that forums such as this might make people stop and think for a minute, rather than just doing whatever was done to them.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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29-03-2017, 09:58 AM
RE: Questions!
(29-03-2017 09:50 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(29-03-2017 09:32 AM)Alla Wrote:  What if parents believe that it is right thing to do - to teach their children to live according to their religion? What should they do?

They should educate themselves on what is objectively best for their child, as far as possible. I'd ask them why it's necessary to force the religious belief into their child's brain. Will they not believe the ideas on their own merits?

If they asked my advice, I'd make the case as to why I think it's a bad idea. I'd say a person who couldn't bear the idea of their children believing any different to themselves shouldn't have them in the first place.

I would hope parents would want their children to think for themselves. Indoctrinating them, into anything, is the opposite of that. I think it's fucked up. But it's their decision.

I hope that forums such as this might make people stop and think for a minute, rather than just doing whatever was done to them.

Many christian parents DO think its right to beat their children.... And they do study the most "objective" ways to beat their kids as told by the bible.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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29-03-2017, 10:10 AM
RE: Questions!
(29-03-2017 09:43 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(29-03-2017 09:32 AM)Alla Wrote:  What if parents believe that it is right thing to do - to teach their children to live according to their religion? What should they do?
They should align their beliefs with reality.

My mother taught me, in all sincerity, that if you mean well and try your best to do well, everything in my life would turn out alright. She was sincerely wrong. I would have preferred to have my expectations set much better than to assume there is some form of built-in justice in the unfolding of my personal life, or that intentions matter whether they are correct or not. "I didn't mean to hurt you" doesn't mean a thing to someone that you've hurt or disappointed or whatever.

This was partly her magical belief based on her personality characteristics, quite apart from the religious ideations that she was attracted to as a result. None of this made it right or helpful to me.

Its difficult when some beliefs as so utterly crazy even the mainstream ones like Muslims and sperm coming from the backbone and less mainstream ones like Mormons and the convenient discovery of gold tablets in reformed Egyptian which mysteriously disappeared and have never been seen or independently verified and there having to be two translations by Joseph Smith for some bizarre reason, nephelim fucking human woman to produce demons and shit, when you are dealing with that level of crazy its fair to say the kids are probably more sane than the adults. Laugh out load
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