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03-04-2017, 12:33 AM
RE: Questions!
(01-04-2017 01:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:Below is my unfiltered evaluation. I've put in spoilers in case you're not interested, as I'm not trying to upset you; just to honestly present my point of view.
I appreciate you don't want to upset me. It only proves what an amazing and thoughtful person you are. You are great example to many.
But your honest views will never offend or upset me. I appreciate honesty and honest opinions.

Robvalue Wrote:So it sounds to me like you insist they pray,
I insist them to do many things I believe are good for them. I insist them to read books, to stay more outside, to eat good food, to do their choirs and to be nice to each other. I believe that it is my duty as a parent. Why? Because I love my children and I want them to do what is good for them.

Robvalue Wrote:and that you make them accept as fact that they are talking to someone/something.
No, even I don't know if it is a fact. I BELIEVE, I have very strong conviction it is a fact and by teaching them my beliefs I give them an opportunity to believe it too. But they may chose not to believe. Only when they are presented with information they have an opportunity to make a choice - to believe or not to believe what I believe.
I insist that they pray so they can have an opportunity to try something that I know is good. Only when they pray they can know for themselves that it is good for them. They don't have to rely on my word. They also can choose: "I don't want to do this any more. I don't care it is good for me". Or, they can say: "I don't see, mom, what you see."

Ronvalue Wrote:the good feelings you mention that you get from praying are easily explained by the placebo effect,
That's fine. If God exists then He knows about placebo effect. He would use whatever works so we can help ourselves. Prayer is a pill/medicine that works. And the best part - it is absolutely free.

Ronvalue Wrote:If the Heavenly Father is telling them they need to pray, why is it that you need to tell them to do it? It seems that anything he has to say coincides with what you decide he is saying to them.
I don't know what Heavenly Father is saying to them. I only know what He wants me to say to them.

So based on your claim that a god know's about the placebo effect, and that prayer works and is free....

Do you have any statistical evidence that show's prayer is effective at healing sickness?

Do you think that would be easily identifiable if looked at with statistics? (you know a bunch of people getting healed because they pray, vs those who don't)

Do you think this has ever been studied before? (and if so what do you think the results are)

Finally, would you like to see the statistics on your claim?

Spoiler alert

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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03-04-2017, 01:12 AM
RE: Questions!
JesseB Wrote:Do you have any statistical evidence that show's prayer is effective at healing sickness?
There is no way to prove that prayers are effective at healing sickness. But there are people who say they prayed and miracle happened.
We only can believe that prayer was answered. We can not know for sure.

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03-04-2017, 01:51 AM
RE: Questions!
(03-04-2017 01:12 AM)Alla Wrote:  
JesseB Wrote:Do you have any statistical evidence that show's prayer is effective at healing sickness?
There is no way to prove that prayers are effective at healing sickness. But there are people who say they prayed and miracle happened.
We only can believe that prayer was answered. We can not know for sure.

Could you explain why we should we think that the effectiveness of prayer at healing sickness is untestable? Studies have been performed on the efficacy of prayer and overwhelmingly show no correlation between prayer and healing.

I appreciate that you acknowledge that correlation does not equal causation, but if you can't know that a prayer was answered for sure, then why believe it?
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03-04-2017, 04:29 AM
RE: Questions!
(03-04-2017 01:12 AM)Alla Wrote:  There is no way to prove that prayers are effective at healing sickness. But there are people who say they prayed and miracle happened.
We only can believe that prayer was answered.

Textbook gullibility. The correct conclusion would have been "We can only withhold belief until we are more certain/we have more data/statistics".
If i would apply this thinking to any other topic in any other part of life, you would, rightfully, call me an idiot.

Not that my post would get past your religious defense mechanism, i know. It was meant more for lurkers and people sitting on the fence.

Peeps: Look at "exhibit A". You dont want to be like exhibit A.

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03-04-2017, 05:08 AM
RE: Questions!
Prayer is a setup or an invitation for practicing the logical fallacy of Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Step 1 - Pray for something.

Step 2 -Interpret anything that happens as an answer or even if nothing happens, god has given the no or wait response.

Step 3- Pat yourself on the back for all of your "answered" prayers.

Step 4- Convince yourself that god answers prayer, repeat step 1.

It can create quite a convenient loop of confirmation bias that buttresses all of your biases and seduces you into the realm of superstition where nothing is falsifiable.

Before one prayer is ever uttered, the conditions for failure should be very clear from the onset.

Did you ask to find a nickel on the ground and found a dime? Then that prayer wasn't really answered.

Did you ask for a friend to be cured of diabetes, but they lost weight and alleviated their symptoms naturally? Then that prayer wasn't really answered.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-04-2017, 07:51 AM
RE: Questions!
(27-03-2017 09:29 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Alyssa, if have my right hand behind my back and ask you to guess how many fingers I'm holding up, how often will you be correct ?

I'll even let you ask god for help, cause he knows right ?

Now what would you think if every guess of yours is wrong.
You guess 2 and I pull my hand from behind my back showing you 3 three fingers.
Would you conclude that I'm cheating or would you conclude that god has lied to you every single time ?

Now what if you guessed correctly every single time ?
Would you conclude that again, I am cheating or would you conclude that the answers god gave you were right every single time ?

But if I'm cheating when you guess them correct every single time, that would mean that god lied to you nearly every single time, except on the times when you guessed correctly as a matter of coincidence.

Or lastly, god doesn't exist and the conversations you have in your head are just your imagination.

Sounds to me like a modern "Schrödinger's Cat" conundrum. [Image: BRqIww5.gif?zoom=2] [Image: oqeU4zV.gif?zoom=2]

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03-04-2017, 08:35 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2017 08:38 AM by Alla.)
RE: Questions!
Ordinary Atheist Wrote:Could you explain why we should we think that the effectiveness of prayer at healing sickness is untestable? Studies have been performed on the efficacy of prayer and overwhelmingly show no correlation between prayer and healing.
I am not sure how this kind of studies can be done. Do you mind to explain it to me?

Ordinary Atheist Wrote:I appreciate that you acknowledge that correlation does not equal causation, but if you can't know that a prayer was answered for sure, then why believe it?

This is very good question - why believe it? I will talk about myself only.
When I ask God to heal or to do something for me I always remember that it is my will and it is not necessarily Father's will. This is why I ask God to help me to accept His will. When I do this I realize that I am ready to accept any outcome. Sometimes during the prayer and sometimes after the prayer I have impression that it is God's will that healing or whatever I ask will happen. Then healing(or whatever I ask) happens. So, my impression was correct. It gives me a foundation for my belief that God answered my prayer.
Sometimes during the prayer and sometimes after the prayer I have impression that it will be no healing( or whatever I ask). This is not what I want but somehow I am ready to accept this and I feel peace. Then healing( or whatever I asked) didn't happen. My impression was correct. This impression is the foundation for my belief that the answer "no" came from my Father.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
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03-04-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: Questions!
(03-04-2017 08:35 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Ordinary Atheist Wrote:Could you explain why we should we think that the effectiveness of prayer at healing sickness is untestable? Studies have been performed on the efficacy of prayer and overwhelmingly show no correlation between prayer and healing.
I am not sure how this kind of studies can be done. Do you mind to explain it to me?

Ordinary Atheist Wrote:I appreciate that you acknowledge that correlation does not equal causation, but if you can't know that a prayer was answered for sure, then why believe it?

This is very good question - why believe it? I will talk about myself only.
When I ask God to heal or to do something for me I always remember that it is my will and it is not necessarily Father's will. This is why I ask God to help me to accept His will. When I do this I realize that I am ready to accept any outcome. Sometimes during the prayer and sometimes after the prayer I have impression that it is God's will that healing or whatever I ask will happen. Then healing(or whatever I ask) happens. So, my impression was correct. It gives me a foundation for my belief that God answered my prayer.
Sometimes during the prayer and sometimes after the prayer I have impression that it will be no healing( or whatever I ask). This is not what I want but somehow I am ready to accept this and I feel peace. Then healing( or whatever I asked) didn't happen. My impression was correct. This impression is the foundation for my belief that the answer "no" came from my Father.

This raises many more questions than it answers, however since I just woke up (and am not completely here yet), I'll just ask this one.

How can you be sure you're not simply engaged in post hoc rationalization. Also if its "his" will and his will looks suspiciously like no god at all when measured with statistics, why do you need prayer at all? Why even bother. It kinda sounds like he's not listening at all, and you just brainwash yourself and give yourself an answer.

Like some neglected kid trying to have a one sided relationship with a parent who pretends you don't exist.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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03-04-2017, 11:45 AM
RE: Questions!
(03-04-2017 12:33 AM)JesseB Wrote:  Spoiler alert

I think this bit rings true.

Prayer is a special form of meditation and may therefore convey all the health benefits that have been associated with meditation

Different types of meditation have been shown to result in psychological and biological changes that are actually or potentially associated with improved health. Meditation has been found to produce a clinically significant reduction in resting as well as ambulatory blood pressure,[2,3] to reduce heart rate,[4] to result in cardiorespiratory synchronization,[5] to alter levels of melatonin and serotonin,[6] to suppress corticostriatal glutamatergic neurotransmission,[7] to boost the immune response,[8] to decrease the levels of reactive oxygen species as measured by ultraweak photon emission,[9] to reduce stress and promote positive mood states,[10] to reduce anxiety and pain and enhance self-esteem[11] and to have a favorable influence on overall and spiritual quality of life in late-stage disease.[12] Interestingly, spiritual meditation has been found to be superior to secular meditation and relaxation in terms of decrease in anxiety and improvement in positive mood, spiritual health, spiritual experiences and tolerance to pain.[13]

#sigh
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03-04-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: Questions!
(03-04-2017 01:12 AM)Alla Wrote:  
JesseB Wrote:Do you have any statistical evidence that show's prayer is effective at healing sickness?
There is no way to prove that prayers are effective at healing sickness. But there are people who say they prayed and miracle happened.
We only can believe that prayer was answered. We can not know for sure.

No, we can understand that some people recover and some don't. Prayer has no measurable, or even detectable, effect.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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