Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
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23-01-2014, 05:22 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
Quote:How does God love me, let me count the ways ?

- Allows poverty and war.

You make stupid choices you get stupid consequences. You want God to let you be a man? Fine, live with the consequences or your stupid actions.

Quote:- This world is running outta resources, what up with that ?
Who said that and why do you believe them? Did they create the planet?


Quote:- Earthquakes and shit.

Those are tough. Its a shame.

Quote:- Doesn't like gay people.

God so loved the world.... that includes gay people.

Quote:- Wants me to do stupid shit for no reason.

I'm sorry, I thought you were referring to the God of the Bible. Perhaps you are referring to another one.

Quote:- Wants to cook us if we don't believe in him when he's explicitly hidden all the evidence.

He doesn't want to cook you and you ignore the given evidence.

Quote:Yeah, he's a great deity alright Smile

Whether you believe in him or not.
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23-01-2014, 05:31 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
I read the whole bible when I was 10. I had just gotten done with fairy tales and figured I'd read something enlightening and real.

I ended up filing it with the fairy tale books. Thought it was worse than Grimm's, more cruel and heartless and illogical too.

Haven't read any of it since, and don't plan to. What a waste of time.

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23-01-2014, 05:32 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(13-11-2013 08:30 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 12:24 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  1. Why are my prayers unsuccessful and unanswered?

I prayed faithfully from the time I was first able to repeat the prayers of my parents. I have never experienced ANY sensation that was indistinguishable from indigestion. I knew it in my heart, even as a child. Sometimes, this reality would bother me enough to go down one of these paths.

a. I am not good enough for God to talk to me. I am unworthy.

This line of reasoning would cause such guilt in me over any supposed sin that could possibly be responsible, that I would feel compelled to pray all the harder out of shame. My prayers would soon lead me to begging for forgiveness that I would never feel I received. This was the foundation of my childhood depression.

b. Something is wrong with my ability to hear God. I am broken.

This thought made me equally sad, and depressed over time. If I was at fault by malfunction, and not even God had repaired me, what chance did I have? Surely, I would never hear his voice, or feel his will.

c. I just need to accept God's will, and stop worrying about my prayers.

For a while I settled on a policy of self deception. By purposefully repeating the answers that I thought God ought to give to me in my mind, I convinced myself that it was, in fact, God sending me a message. Part of me was aware of my self deception, but the rest was caught up in my desire for it to be true.

One day I realized, if God's will is inevitable, why pray? His will will go on regardless of my desires. I might as well save my breath and suffer his will.

My prayers continued out of despairing hope, but were never the same again. In the end, the only thing keeping me trying was my desire to not be alone in the world. Surely someone had to be watching out for me. What was true wasn't important, because I didn't want to be alone.

One day it occurred to me that it might not matter that I wasn't being answered by God with a message. Perhaps my prayers were having a physical effect upon the world. Miracles may have happened, and I would not have known. I began immediately to test the effectiveness of my prayers on the world.

It didn't take long for me to despair over the simple fact that my prayers did absolutely NOTHING. The odds of getting what I wanted were not different than if I had never prayed. For example, I found missing items I prayed for some of the time, and I lost others forever.

I noticed the way others reacted to events around them in relation to their prayers. When something good happened to a person of faith that I knew, they would always be certain to give the credit loudly to God or Jesus. Whenever something bad would happen to that very same person, not a word about God being responsible escaped their lips. If God was mentioned at all in these situations, it was only to remind themselves, or others, to have more faith in him. The obvious double standard seemed ridiculous, as well as disrespectful towards God. It made him look the fool, only succeeding in being omnipotent and omniscient for some of the time. God might as well have "off hours". I could not take any of this seriously.

I struggled even more with the implications of God's ability to intervene in the first place. If God was so benevolent, as I had been emphatically taught, why would he not take every possible opportunity to intervene for the good of humanity? If he were to look down upon the earth and witness the suffering of one of his faithful children, would he help them?

Natural disasters seemed an excellent place to test this line of reasoning. If God is responsible for all things in the world, and they serve him at all times, I had to conclude that God is personally responsible for every natural disaster. If God is good, and good to humanity, why would he construct such massive instruments of death and suffering? Why would he choose to unleash them on his children, both the righteous and the unrighteous?

News was a constant subject of discussion in our home due to my father's love of politics. Even if he did not mention a particular article, I had full access to the internet to do so myself. Natural disasters occurred often enough for me to have read many such articles. I noticed the strong likelihood of survivors to credit God with their survival. This seemed foolish to me, since they did not consider that God was responsible for striking their home with the disaster in the first place. They made him sound like such a good Samaritan who just happened to be glancing down among the raging winds, only to snatch up a victim and take him or her to safety. These testifying victims may as well have called God a twisted individual for causing the chaos, merely to be branded the hero. It was all so embarrassing to read.

Another implication of their claim of a miracle rescue by God, was that those who perished, some in intense agony, were destined to that fate by God. If the storm were God's will, anyone who perished was destined to that end. This made God out to be maniacal to me. Who else would cause such chaos, death, and destruction and call it good, but a maniac? No benevolent God could do such a thing. If God taught his children to be moral, he must be even more moral and good. This could not be his work.

It all comes apart completely at the seams when one ponders on the many prayers that must have pierced the air in the midst of such disasters. How many helpless people prayed in desperation to be spared by God, and were killed. How many would live? Didn't they all pray? Doesn't God answer all of their prayers? If the storm were his will, prayers were rendered meaningless. Why pray if your fate is sealed? The unfairness of it, disgusted me.

I do not pray anymore. For a while I was painfully alone. Now, I am stronger and more responsible for myself. Allowing myself to go through a time of longing for something greater shaped me into a more proactive and responsible person. I no longer feel alone in my own mind, because I have learned how to trust my own reason and judgement. I pay attention to my own private feelings and thoughts in a way that I would never have fathomed before.

What are your thoughts on prayer?

Prayer is something believers do when they are all out of other options and can't face reality. In that one last desperate attempt at having some control, some input, into an otherwise hopeless situation, they pray.

Prayer is also something believers do offhandedly with very little thought in the stupidest of circumstances - "I pray my team wins", "I pray I get that iPad for Xmas", "I pray I get an A on that test".

Anyway you look at it, prayer makes no sense at all, but countless people cling to it like Linus' blanket.

I too was one of those once. Like Momsurroundedbyboys, I too continue to pray for awhile even after my faith was gone. I was still desperate and still stupid and still clinging to that useless blanket.

Thank goodness (cuz what else would I thank), that's all behind me now and I never pray anymore. And it's funny, I'm still getting through life just fine too - no, actually better.


About the A on the test thing. I'd like to know how the mechanics of that prayer would work.

Would god suddenly give them a boost of intelligence? Will the person who grades the exam be brainwashed into giving them an A? Will it be originally graded an F but god will change it?

Shit like that has to happen for a prayer to work, but nobody ever tells tales of sudden knowledge or an A appearing when they intended to write an F.

It's all well and good thanking god for something, how about you just sit back and think of what absurd things must happen to other people for that prayer to be granted.
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24-01-2014, 12:00 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(23-01-2014 05:22 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
Quote:How does God love me, let me count the ways ?

- Allows poverty and war.

You make stupid choices you get stupid consequences. You want God to let you be a man? Fine, live with the consequences or your stupid actions.
You're saying it's poor people's fault that they're poor ? Dead people's fault that they died in a war ? Your God could stop all these things but does not. He's a dick.

Quote:
Quote:- This world is running outta resources, what up with that ?
Who said that and why do you believe them? Did they create the planet?
Science. Good grief. I could cite you a ref but just bloody google it my son. Actually here you go: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-consu...stainable/ And there's plenty more like it.

Quote:
Quote:- Earthquakes and shit.

Those are tough. Its a shame.
They're your loving God's responsibility after all.

Quote:
Quote:- Doesn't like gay people.

God so loved the world.... that includes gay people.
God so didn't love gay people he said they should be stoned right there in that same book you're quoting. Try again.

Quote:
Quote:- Wants me to do stupid shit for no reason.

I'm sorry, I thought you were referring to the God of the Bible. Perhaps you are referring to another one.
Belief necessary for salvation. Wasting time worshiping a megalomaniac. Hating random segments of the population for no reason. Believing on 'faith' alone because he's too much of a douche to just show himself. Giving people cancer then expecting people to pray for him to cure them. Your God is a regular ball of fun.

Quote:
Quote:- Wants to cook us if we don't believe in him when he's explicitly hidden all the evidence.
He doesn't want to cook you and you ignore the given evidence.
He does, according to your silly book. Or are you gonna argue that all the shit about going to hell is metaphorical ?

Quote:
Quote:Yeah, he's a great deity alright Smile

Whether you believe in him or not.
You pray to an empty void Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-01-2014, 12:23 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(24-01-2014 12:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  You're saying it's poor people's fault that they're poor ? Dead people's fault that they died in a war ? Your God could stop all these things but does not. He's a dick.
God has already provided all the information you need to deal with "poverty" so if you don't follow it, its your fault. If people would keep their hands to themselves we wouldn't have war. When people don't follow Gods ways people can die. Also not his fault.


Quote:Science. Good grief. I could cite you a ref but just bloody google it my son. Actually here you go: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-consu...stainable/ And there's plenty more like it.

You put far too much faith in people who didn't create the planet who also have motivations for telling you resources are running out so they can control you.

Quote:God so didn't love gay people he said they should be stoned right there in that same book you're quoting. Try again.

in the same book he also said stone murders to death, adulterers which includes heterosexuals and kidnappers. So he seems to be fairly consistent. None of those behaviors are beneficial to society and the people (the Jews) who were given this law agreed to it. So you still have no point.

Quote:Belief necessary for salvation. Wasting time worshiping a megalomaniac. Hating random segments of the population for no reason. Believing on 'faith' alone because he's too much of a douche to just show himself. Giving people cancer then expecting people to pray for him to cure them. Your God is a regular ball of fun.

This is the kind of stuff you think when you have fingers lodged within your ears.

Quote:He does, according to your silly book. Or are you gonna argue that all the shit about going to hell is metaphorical ?
he doesn't try reading the book again.
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24-01-2014, 12:57 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(24-01-2014 12:23 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 12:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  You're saying it's poor people's fault that they're poor ? Dead people's fault that they died in a war ? Your God could stop all these things but does not. He's a dick.
God has already provided all the information you need to deal with "poverty" so if you don't follow it, its your fault. If people would keep their hands to themselves we wouldn't have war. When people don't follow Gods ways people can die. Also not his fault.


Quote:Science. Good grief. I could cite you a ref but just bloody google it my son. Actually here you go: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-consu...stainable/ And there's plenty more like it.

You put far too much faith in people who didn't create the planet who also have motivations for telling you resources are running out so they can control you.

Quote:God so didn't love gay people he said they should be stoned right there in that same book you're quoting. Try again.

in the same book he also said stone murders to death, adulterers which includes heterosexuals and kidnappers. So he seems to be fairly consistent. None of those behaviors are beneficial to society and the people (the Jews) who were given this law agreed to it. So you still have no point.

Quote:Belief necessary for salvation. Wasting time worshiping a megalomaniac. Hating random segments of the population for no reason. Believing on 'faith' alone because he's too much of a douche to just show himself. Giving people cancer then expecting people to pray for him to cure them. Your God is a regular ball of fun.

This is the kind of stuff you think when you have fingers lodged within your ears.

Quote:He does, according to your silly book. Or are you gonna argue that all the shit about going to hell is metaphorical ?
he doesn't try reading the book again.

Anidominus - you appear to be one deluded and simple-minded person based on the statements in this thread.
1.) The answers for poverty, war, and death are simple if we just follow god's ways? You must be friggin kidding - you have read the Bible, correct?
2.) Putting faith in scientists so they can control us? Faith + Control - you have read the Bible, correct?
3.) The consisntent violent behaviors against people found in God's laws are not beneficial to society? According to modern man, yes, God, not so much. You have read the Bible, correct?
4.) I have read the book with open eyes, and listened with open ears, to conclude it is all mythical fairy tales to control one's thoughts and preys on gullibility and fear.

Now get your fingers out of your ears and your head out of the clouds (or your ass), wherever it is hiding!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-01-2014, 01:06 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(24-01-2014 12:23 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
Quote:God so didn't love gay people he said they should be stoned right there in that same book you're quoting. Try again.

in the same book he also said stone murders to death, adulterers which includes heterosexuals and kidnappers. So he seems to be fairly consistent. None of those behaviors are beneficial to society and the people (the Jews) who were given this law agreed to it. So you still have no point.

Anidominus,
Are you equating gays with adulterers, murderers and kidnappers? What part of "gay behavior" is not beneficial to society?

Doc
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24-01-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(24-01-2014 01:06 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 12:23 PM)anidominus Wrote:  in the same book he also said stone murders to death, adulterers which includes heterosexuals and kidnappers. So he seems to be fairly consistent. None of those behaviors are beneficial to society and the people (the Jews) who were given this law agreed to it. So you still have no point.

Anidominus,
Are you equating gays with adulterers, murderers and kidnappers? What part of "gay behavior" is not beneficial to society?

Doc

Homosexual behavior falls under adultery. I am not comparing it to murder. He commented that God doesn't love gays because he said to stone them. I was showing him where has also include the same punishment for other sins.

Name one nation who has embraced/accepted homosexuality for the last 2-3 hundred years who can tell us how well its worked out for them? We know homosexuality is nothing new because even the bible talks about it. So considering its been around 5,000 years we should at least have one country that can show us that it causes society no harm or at least has some benefits.
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24-01-2014, 03:53 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(24-01-2014 03:47 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 01:06 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Anidominus,
Are you equating gays with adulterers, murderers and kidnappers? What part of "gay behavior" is not beneficial to society?

Doc

Homosexual behavior falls under adultery. I am not comparing it to murder. He commented that God doesn't love gays because he said to stone them. I was showing him where has also include the same punishment for other sins.

Name one nation who has embraced/accepted homosexuality for the last 2-3 hundred years who can tell us how well its worked out for them? We know homosexuality is nothing new because even the bible talks about it. So considering its been around 5,000 years we should at least have one country that can show us that it causes society no harm or at least has some benefits.

The US. It is the religious bigots and weak minded, insecure, self righteous dolts like you who place negative labels in place of acceptance. There has been no harm (as you say) done in states that outright elimated discrimination against homesexuality. Take a godd look at yourself to see where the harm is coming from.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-01-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(24-01-2014 03:47 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 01:06 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Anidominus,
Are you equating gays with adulterers, murderers and kidnappers? What part of "gay behavior" is not beneficial to society?

Doc

Homosexual behavior falls under adultery. I am not comparing it to murder. He commented that God doesn't love gays because he said to stone them. I was showing him where has also include the same punishment for other sins.

Name one nation who has embraced/accepted homosexuality for the last 2-3 hundred years who can tell us how well its worked out for them? We know homosexuality is nothing new because even the bible talks about it. So considering its been around 5,000 years we should at least have one country that can show us that it causes society no harm or at least has some benefits.

Please enlighten us with the facts as to the harm homosexuality is doing. Please support your assertions with objective evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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