Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
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26-01-2014, 01:44 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
So how's this whole dualism thing supposed to work? One and done. ... wait ... Consider ... have I already posted this? ... Consider ... ah, fuck me I have.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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26-01-2014, 03:55 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(26-01-2014 01:13 PM)Cephalotus Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 12:31 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Exactly. So how on earth would you know what a God would do? You don't.

I'm a bit confused by your statements. Are you implying the usual "You can't judge God by human standards" defense?

Because if you are, it's completely bunk. Every single person who ever founded a religion was doing exactly that.

I wonder answer this but you seem to know all the answers already.
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26-01-2014, 05:08 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(26-01-2014 03:55 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 01:13 PM)Cephalotus Wrote:  I'm a bit confused by your statements. Are you implying the usual "You can't judge God by human standards" defense?

Because if you are, it's completely bunk. Every single person who ever founded a religion was doing exactly that.

I wonder answer this but you seem to know all the answers already.

Ok, let me get this straight: I bring up the indisputable fact that every single religion in human history was founded by a human (because they all were) but believers consider it the word of Gawd and follow it without questioning....and somehow I'M the one who thinks they know everything?

If I laughed at this as hard as I wanted to, I would hyperventilate.

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26-01-2014, 08:49 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(26-01-2014 12:31 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 01:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  Gee none at all. Consider I guess I'll go throw out all my science books now. Theist with the ultimate stumper question, who knew ? Which precise branch of your daft cult do I have to join now that I've admitted you're right ?

Exactly. So how on earth would you know what a God would do? You don't.

So, how on Earth would you know that God exists? You don't.

Seriously. You keep getting ahead of yourself on your assumptions. There is no evidence that God exists that doesn't rely on you assuming he exists in the first place.. If you feel that statement is inaccurate, please, show me a counter-example. Lead this horse to the water that you've boasted about in the past.
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27-01-2014, 01:07 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(26-01-2014 12:31 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Exactly. So how on earth would you know what a God would do? You don't.

I hope you don't mean to argue that no one could possibly know god's intention, or perhaps even his nature. That would put you quite out of the argument, since so much of its continuance relies on you doing that very thing. Next time you start to type, ask yourself where you have acquired the authority to speak for god, or from what equally unworthy source have you borrowed it?

(26-01-2014 08:49 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  There is no evidence that God exists that doesn't rely on you assuming he exists in the first place..

In my opinion, the answer to this is obvious. Only those indoctrinated, usually from infancy, cannot figure out why evidence is so important. They have to begin with god existing as their conclusion. It was not a debate when they were told about him as a child, he simply existed, or so they were told. Only adults have the maturity to ask for evidence, and by then the work of the faithful is long since done. I do not think any other influence is quite as common and difficult to overcome as childhood indoctrination of non-factual information. Where does one begin when basic facts about reality have been askew in the mind since birth?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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27-01-2014, 08:00 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(27-01-2014 01:07 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 08:49 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  There is no evidence that God exists that doesn't rely on you assuming he exists in the first place..

In my opinion, the answer to this is obvious. Only those indoctrinated, usually from infancy, cannot figure out why evidence is so important. They have to begin with god existing as their conclusion. It was not a debate when they were told about him as a child, he simply existed, or so they were told. Only adults have the maturity to ask for evidence, and by then the work of the faithful is long since done. I do not think any other influence is quite as common and difficult to overcome as childhood indoctrination of non-factual information. Where does one begin when basic facts about reality have been askew in the mind since birth?

Oh, I understand. I made many of those same arguments myself when I was in college. I knew, even then, that I wasn't willing to actually consider any approach that wouldn't have God existing as the conclusion.

Now, you can get to a point where you start wanting evidence, but, from my own personal experience, it was a several-year-long journey.
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27-01-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(27-01-2014 01:07 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  In my opinion, the answer to this is obvious. Only those indoctrinated, usually from infancy, cannot figure out why evidence is so important. They have to begin with god existing as their conclusion. It was not a debate when they were told about him as a child, he simply existed, or so they were told. Only adults have the maturity to ask for evidence, and by then the work of the faithful is long since done. I do not think any other influence is quite as common and difficult to overcome as childhood indoctrination of non-factual information. Where does one begin when basic facts about reality have been askew in the mind since birth?

"Divines act very wisely in teaching men their religious principles before they are capable of distinguishing truth from falsehood, or their left hand from their right. It would be as difficult to instill into the mind of a man, forty years old, the extravagant notions that are given us of the divinity, as to eradicate them from the mind of him who had imbibed them from infancy."
-Paul Henri Thiry d’Holbach, "Good Sense" (1772)

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27-01-2014, 11:55 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(27-01-2014 01:07 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 12:31 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Exactly. So how on earth would you know what a God would do? You don't.

I hope you don't mean to argue that no one could possibly know god's intention, or perhaps even his nature. That would put you quite out of the argument, since so much of its continuance relies on you doing that very thing. Next time you start to type, ask yourself where you have acquired the authority to speak for god, or from what equally unworthy source have you borrowed it?

(26-01-2014 08:49 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  There is no evidence that God exists that doesn't rely on you assuming he exists in the first place..

In my opinion, the answer to this is obvious. Only those indoctrinated, usually from infancy, cannot figure out why evidence is so important. They have to begin with god existing as their conclusion. It was not a debate when they were told about him as a child, he simply existed, or so they were told. Only adults have the maturity to ask for evidence, and by then the work of the faithful is long since done. I do not think any other influence is quite as common and difficult to overcome as childhood indoctrination of non-factual information. Where does one begin when basic facts about reality have been askew in the mind since birth?

I only know what God tells me through his word and the prophets. Other than that I don't know anything.

Atheist are the ones who are always saying, "A loving god would do this.... a loving god would do that..." so I ask them have they ever been god? The answer is always no. So how do they know what a God would do?
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27-01-2014, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2014 02:23 PM by Dark Phoenix.)
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(27-01-2014 11:55 AM)anidominus Wrote:  I only know what God tells me through his word and the prophets. Other than that I don't know anything.

Atheist are the ones who are always saying, "A loving god would do this.... a loving god would do that..." so I ask them have they ever been god? The answer is always no. So how do they know what a God would do?

Great question. If an Atheist, or anyone else, were to say that they know the mind of god, they would be obviously full of shit. Everyone who ever has claimed this has been utterly full of shit.

However, if someone says to me, "My god is perfect. He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent." I can accurately predict this god's behavior.

Here is an example. In Genesis 3:8-13 it explains the aftermath of Adam and Even eating of the fruit of good and evil.

Quote: 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

If god is omniscient, why did he not know where Adam was? Why did he not know what they had done? If he is omnipresent, did he not witness these events for himself?

In this way, I uncovered a great deal of contradictions, not just in the scriptures, but in reality as well. For example, if god is omniscient, why bother praying? He already knows. Yet, we are commanded by scripture to pray.

I think you see the point.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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27-01-2014, 03:25 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #1
(27-01-2014 12:13 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(27-01-2014 11:55 AM)anidominus Wrote:  I only know what God tells me through his word and the prophets. Other than that I don't know anything.

Atheist are the ones who are always saying, "A loving god would do this.... a loving god would do that..." so I ask them have they ever been god? The answer is always no. So how do they know what a God would do?

Great question. If an Atheist, or anyone else, were to say that they know the mind of god, they would be obviously full of shit. Everyone who ever has claimed this has been utterly full of shit.

However, if someone says to me, "My god is perfect. He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent." I can accurately predict this god's behavior.

Here is an example. In Genesis 3:8-13 it explains the aftermath of Adam and Even eating of the fruit of good and evil.

Quote: 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

If god is omniscient, why did he not know where Adam was? Why did he not know what they had done? If he is omnipresent, did he not witness these events for himself?

In this way, I uncovered a great deal of contradictions, not just in the scriptures, but in reality as well. For example, if god is omniscient, why bother praying? He already knows. Yet, we are commanded by scripture to pray.

I think you see the point.

Can not God ask questions he already knows the answer? Is there some law that says he can't?

God desires a personal relationship with you. You can speak to him about anything, not just about what you want. I'm not going to sit here and say you'll get an audio reply but I think many of the things I've wondered, asked for, talked about has been answered.
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