Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
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31-01-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(31-01-2014 02:11 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 12:30 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Nothing is going to change my mind about Yahweh.
What exactly are you doing on this forum, then? Consider

He's gonna change ours Huh

Um, good luck with that.... Thumbsup Drinking Beverage
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31-01-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(31-01-2014 02:11 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 12:30 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Nothing is going to change my mind about Yahweh.
What exactly are you doing on this forum, then? Consider

What more efficient way is there to boost one's self righteous ego about the afterlife. Coming to this forum and damning everybody for being wrong must boost him high up on his phsycho soap box.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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31-01-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(31-01-2014 02:08 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  If A is the case, than

1. How does the god prove the claim?
2. Does the god ever support a claim, and choose not to prove it?
3. Does the god ever make claims about his/her self directly? If so, how can we tell the difference?
1. Anyway he chooses. Jesus healed the sick and cured the blind, yet he was still rejected by many. Sometimes "proof" simply isn't enough.
2. Yahweh has proven every claim he's made so I doubt it. I suppose a "god" would but I can't relate.
3. Yahweh always makes his own claims. No one can claim anything about Yahweh unless he has already claimed it about himself. If anyone made a false claim regarding Yahweh I assure you the claim will not go unnoticed. Someone will be moved to counter the claim but there is no guarantee they'll be believed.

Quote:If B is the case,
1. Is it possible for a person to claim something about a god that is not true, but that the god doesn't care to correct? If so, how can we tell?

I can only answer these kinds of questions from the perspective Yahweh. Technically there is no way I can answer this because you are asking me these questions as if I believe these other gods are real.

I don't know how you can tell. Just like different atheist required different "proof" of God's existence, different people need different things. All I can tell you to do is look at the history of the people of the faith. Look at the lives of the people who founded it. The bible is a very honest collection of books. It never makes anyone to be anything more than a man except Jesus who never wrote one word about himself.

For many things I only have what is written. All I know is that of all the places in the world I'd rather be rich or poor famous or a nobody, I can find no safer places than those where the people at least within the last 2-3 hundred years worshiped Yahweh. But considering I was born the US it would be harder for me to live anywhere else.

Quote:Do you believe that C is possible?

No, C isn't possible. It's happened already.

Quote:How are we to tell the difference?
The only thing I can say to that is to look at the results of the faith. Look at what happens when the people who claim the faith follow the faith. If it leads to f-up situations then avoid it I suppose.

Quote:I do not feel that you have answered this question yet.

1. Do you believe that only the Christian god exists, or that many gods do?
2. Do you believe that all claims represent these gods accurately?

1. Yahweh wants exclusive rights to your heart. lol. I don't believe in any other gods other than Yahweh. However, Yahweh defines god slightly different than we typically do. Yahweh defines god, as anything you place ahead of him. So, if your job takes precedences over everything else in your life, then your job is your god. Hence the commandment, thou shall have no other gods before me.

2. Since I don't believe in these other gods I don't care if it does or doesn't.
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31-01-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(31-01-2014 12:57 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 12:30 PM)anidominus Wrote:  You're more religious than I am. I have no religion. Nothing is going to change my mind about Yahweh. Has Yahweh changed? I have more than enough evidence in my own personal life and the lives of the people and cultures that have reminded faithful through the millenniums. The people who created the US believed in Yahweh and it has been one of the best nations ever created. If not the best nation ever created. How many people from across the world come here? How many different people come here and live in peace? There is no place on earth like the US and there is no God like Yahweh.

Open your eyes man! Take a peek at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zqOYBabX...SAEoEg4E71

And are you really going to bring up "the founding fathers were Christain" crap again. It has only been cleared up about a zillion times around here.

And a Zillion times I have met someone like you and pointed to evidence that contradicted people who wish to say that the founders were deist and some other crap. They were who they were and if you don't know the different between religion and Christianity then that's your problem.
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01-02-2014, 12:52 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(31-01-2014 12:30 PM)anidominus Wrote:  You're more religious than I am.

I am an Atheist. That means that I don't believe in anything supernatural. I also don't have any affiliation with any churches or religious organizations. I am confused as to how you got the impression that I was religious.

Quote: I have no religion.

Forgive me but, didn't you say you were a Christian?

Quote: Nothing is going to change my mind about Yahweh.

Thanks for answering the question. I appreciate it.

At this point, I would like to discuss our purpose here, if that is alright with you. I understand that you will not change your mind under any circumstances, so that cannot be our purpose.

In all honesty, I could change my mind. I will change my mind, if I feel the evidence is compelling.

Considering the situation, what do you think we could do here that would be a valuable use of our time?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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01-02-2014, 01:29 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(31-01-2014 07:57 PM)anidominus Wrote:  1. Anyway he chooses. Jesus healed the sick and cured the blind, yet he was still rejected by many. Sometimes "proof" simply isn't enough.

In your opinion, why do you think miracles like Jesus' are not seen today?

I maintain a skeptical attitude with evidence of all kinds, especially when the events are a compilation of supposed eyewitness accounts. It gets worse though, since they were written and published literally lifetimes after the events. I do not understand why I should give such evidence the description "proof". It doesn't prove what it wishes to assert. I also don't think this kind of spreading of information makes sense if god really wanted people to know about it, and believe it. I think a powerful god like that, would do better. I really don't think it would be any trouble for him.

Let's say for a moment that it's true, that Jesus did in fact do those miracles. Does this prove that he is god? If so why? In the Old Testament when Moses is engaged in a spiritual duel with the priests of the Pharaoh, is states that they were able to perform wonders as well as Moses. Their power didn't prove their divinity. Why does Jesus' automatically do so?

Quote: 3. Yahweh always makes his own claims. No one can claim anything about Yahweh unless he has already claimed it about himself. If anyone made a false claim regarding Yahweh I assure you the claim will not go unnoticed. Someone will be moved to counter the claim but there is no guarantee they'll be believed.

I don't think I understand this part.

Quote: Yahweh always makes his own claims. No one can claim anything about Yahweh unless he has already claimed it about himself.
Quote: If anyone made a false claim regarding Yahweh

Can you clarify this part for me? It seems conflicting.

Quote: I don't know how you can tell. All I can tell you to do is look at the history of the people of the faith.

Well...I am a little at a loss then. If I can't tell which claims come from god, how can I ever know anything accurately? I might accidentally believe something that is not true.

Quote:Just like different atheists required different "proof" of God's existence, different people need different things.

Wait a moment. I thought proof was supposed to be conclusive, not objective. If this is your experience with Atheists, than they were not being honest with you, or perhaps with themselves either.

Quote: I can find no safer places than those where the people at least within the last 2-3 hundred years worshiped Yahweh. But considering I was born the US it would be harder for me to live anywhere else.

Haven't the Jewish people been believing in Yahweh for a lot longer than that, and yet were not always prospering? Doesn't the bible claim that they were slaves in Egypt for a long while? A great many of them have been slaughtered systematically in Germany, Russia, and other European nations during world war two. Why wasn't their belief in Yahweh enough to make their lives prosperous and happy in these situations?

Quote: The only thing I can say to that is to look at the results of the faith. Look at what happens when the people who claim the faith follow the faith. If it leads to f-up situations then avoid it I suppose.

You know, I might find some situations where faithful believers played a positive role in human history, like for example the life of Martain Luther King Jr, but I would find a lot of other things too. What about the famous atrocities of Christianity, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the systematic burning of "witches". What am I to deduce from these things on the subject of faith?

Quote:No, C isn't possible. It's happened already.

I don't understand. Are you saying that C is impossible, but has happened? Is that want you meant to type?

Quote:Yahweh wants exclusive rights to your heart. lol. I don't believe in any other gods other than Yahweh. However, Yahweh defines god slightly different than we typically do. Yahweh defines god, as anything you place ahead of him. So, if your job takes precedence over everything else in your life, then your job is your god. Hence the commandment, thou shall have no other gods before me.

Ok. So no other gods are real, such as Zeus or Artemis, but Yahweh still wants your full and undivided attention. Is that accurate?

I don't follow on the redefining of "god". Either is means god, or it doesn't. How could Yahweh ever expect anyone to automatically jump to that particular interpretation, when the literal meaning makes a great deal of sense, especially historically, given the context of the time period? There were certainly a lot of other belief systems surrounding the ancient Jewish people.

If we decide to interpret this scripture, not literally, why should I consider any other parts of it to be literal? Is the creation story a metaphor for something else, also? How can I possibly be right if I pick and choose what is literal?

Quote:Since I don't believe in these other gods I don't care if it does or doesn't

OK. Thanks for the explanation.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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01-02-2014, 02:20 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
Theists never use the term "Yahweh", I smell troll or puppet or both.
[Image: 300px-Pseudointellectual_BS_degree.jpg]

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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01-02-2014, 05:23 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
A think Sam Harris's observation applies here.

If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument are you going to make to show they should value logic?

We clearly have here someone who values neither logic nor evidence, who has twisted the definitions of those words so badly in his mind that he thinks he DOES value those things. It is a waste of time


The only argument I think I can make is, if you are so committed to your position that nothing can sway you from it, period, that's fine. I can't stop you. But you have no right, zero, no right whatsoever, to expect anyone else to be open minded about hearing you out. I come to this forum for a dialogue. If I want to be lectured to, I can turn on the TV and catch Joyce Meyer or Joel Osteen or any of a host of charlatans..
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02-02-2014, 02:51 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(01-02-2014 12:52 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 12:30 PM)anidominus Wrote:  You're more religious than I am.

I am an Atheist. That means that I don't believe in anything supernatural. I also don't have any affiliation with any churches or religious organizations. I am confused as to how you got the impression that I was religious.

Quote: I have no religion.

Forgive me but, didn't you say you were a Christian?

Quote: Nothing is going to change my mind about Yahweh.

Thanks for answering the question. I appreciate it.

At this point, I would like to discuss our purpose here, if that is alright with you. I understand that you will not change your mind under any circumstances, so that cannot be our purpose.

In all honesty, I could change my mind. I will change my mind, if I feel the evidence is compelling.

Considering the situation, what do you think we could do here that would be a valuable use of our time?

You're under the false impression that religion has anything to do with God or the super natural. You are very mistaken.

I've made this point before....

Either God is Real or he isn't.

If he isn't real then regardless if the person credits a god or credits his own wisdom, the end result is the same. It makes no sense to exclude the "religious " from the debate on the grounds they are "religious", but then let someone with an even deadlier idea talk because he doesn't credit the super natural.


I came here to answer as many questions as I could. That's it. I didn't come here to change anyone's mind.
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02-02-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(31-01-2014 02:01 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  
Quote:Ever hear of the treaty of Tripoli?
You know the one where George Washington stated that America is a religious nation, which was signed by Thomas Jefferson?

I think you're missing a "not."

Have you ever heard of the

Treaty with Morocco
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1786t.asp

The Definitive Treaty of Peace 1783
http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=...transcript

The government isn't founded on a religion, its the nation that is... it was a nation of Christian people, not deist or atheist.
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