Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
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02-02-2014, 03:42 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(01-02-2014 01:29 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  In your opinion, why do you think miracles like Jesus' are not seen today?

They are seen, may not any where near me but I have seen documentaries where people make the claims. People in the US make those claims, its just rare. Also technology has cured many of the problems which lead to the problems in the past so Tech has replaced Faith so much so that having Faith to heal a persons sight may seen out of this world to most people. Last but not least, people just doubt.

Quote: I also don't think this kind of spreading of information makes sense if god really wanted people to know about it, and believe it. I think a powerful god like that, would do better. I really don't think it would be any trouble for him.

This is a constant problem atheist have. You've never been God so why on earth do you think you know how one would behave?

Quote:Let's say for a moment that it's true, that Jesus did in fact do those miracles. Does this prove that he is god?

Obviously not to everyone cause even then people still rejected him and some even called him a devil.

Quote:If so why? In the Old Testament when Moses is engaged in a spiritual duel with the priests of the Pharaoh, is states that they were able to perform wonders as well as Moses. Their power didn't prove their divinity. Why does Jesus' automatically do so?

Continue reading, Moses snake ate theirs. In addition, the priest couldn't keep up with Moses "Miracles".

Quote:I don't think I understand this part.

Can you clarify this part for me? It seems conflicting.

Ah yes, I completely understand you. Anyone can indeed claim anything about Yahweh or any other god. My point was that people who claim to be followers of Yahweh can not legally claim anything about him that he hasn't already claimed about himself. Yahweh will not allow people to misuse his name forever. But he will decide in his own time when he has had enough of it.

Quote: I don't know how you can tell. All I can tell you to do is look at the history
Well...I am a little at a loss then. If I can't tell which claims come from god, how can I ever know anything accurately? I might accidentally believe something that is not true.
Sorry, don't know what to tell you. All I know is that if you want to serve God and you are repentant and you know you need God in your life, he will enter your life and give you his name, if you ask. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you.


Quote:Wait a moment. I thought proof was supposed to be conclusive, not objective. If this is your experience with Atheists, than they were not being honest with you, or perhaps with themselves either.

there is a thread on these forums title (something like) "What would it take for you to believe in God" Like I also said before, some people still don't believe we went to the moon.

Quote:Haven't the Jewish people been believing in Yahweh for a lot longer than that, and yet were not always prospering?

No, they stop prospering when they stop following. The Jewish people have been in and out of favor with God for centuries. Most of it is written in the scriptures.

America will also fail because it has shown Yahweh the door. And when America fails the rest of the world is coming with us. But God is patient. Perhaps things will turn around.

Quote:Doesn't the bible claim that they were slaves in Egypt for a long while? A great many of them have been slaughtered systematically in Germany, Russia, and other European nations during world war two. Why wasn't their belief in Yahweh enough to make their lives prosperous and happy in these situations?

Yahweh will keep his word. Regardless of what it means. All of this is in the bible. In addition, Yahweh allow us to make bad choices. God will allow you to spend an eternity in Hell if that's your choice.

Quote:You know, I might find some situations where faithful believers played a positive role in human history, like for example the life of Martain Luther King Jr, but I would find a lot of other things too. What about the famous atrocities of Christianity, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the systematic burning of "witches". What am I to deduce from these things on the subject of faith?

Notice what I said carefully, "follow the faith". There is nothing in New Testament that has anything in there about killing people who sin or killing people who are not followers of Christ.

But I can tell you with 80% certainty why those things happened. Constantine made people "Christian" which technically you can't do. They were just Pagans with a Christian Label. And the organized church at the time wouldn't even allow them to read the bible for themselves.

Quote:I don't understand. Are you saying that C is impossible, but has happened? Is that want you meant to type?

Something can't be "possible" in the context that it hasn't happened, when it has already happened. No one would ask is it possible that we could go to the moon.

Quote:Ok. So no other gods are real, such as Zeus or Artemis, but Yahweh still wants your full and undivided attention. Is that accurate?

Close enough. I would argue that Yahweh doesn't care if you think those "gods" are real or not, he comes first. However, "everybody" knows Yahweh wants your full undivided attention. I have no idea why he choose that particular language but I don believe it has something to do with his definition of god.

Quote:I don't follow on the redefining of "god". Either is means god, or it doesn't. How could Yahweh ever expect anyone to automatically jump to that particular interpretation, when the literal meaning makes a great deal of sense, especially historically, given the context of the time period? There were certainly a lot of other belief systems surrounding the ancient Jewish people.

I think I answered that in your previous question.

Quote:If we decide to interpret this scripture, not literally, why should I consider any other parts of it to be literal? Is the creation story a metaphor for something else, also? How can I possibly be right if I pick and choose what is literal?

You really have to go to bible study and have some bible instruction. Some parts are literal, some parts are literal but you have to understand the underlying custom. Some are symbolic. some is just historical. You only figure it out with bible study.

I'm about to say some contradictory.... lol

If you want to not understand anything about the Bible. Just Read it.
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02-02-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(02-02-2014 03:42 PM)anidominus Wrote:  [quote]
I also don't think this kind of spreading of information makes sense if god really wanted people to know about it, and believe it. I think a powerful god like that, would do better. I really don't think it would be any trouble for him.

This is a constant problem atheist have. You've never been God so why on earth do you think you know how one would behave?

[quote]

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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02-02-2014, 07:06 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(02-02-2014 04:00 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  [quote='anidominus' pid='483440' dateline='1391377364']
Quote: I also don't think this kind of spreading of information makes sense if god really wanted people to know about it, and believe it. I think a powerful god like that, would do better. I really don't think it would be any trouble for him.

This is a constant problem atheist have. You've never been God so why on earth do you think you know how one would behave?

[quote]

Well christians are always calling his actions mysterious... So they have no clue how god behaves either.

Moot
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02-02-2014, 07:21 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(02-02-2014 02:51 PM)anidominus Wrote:  You're under the false impression that religion has anything to do with God or the super natural. You are very mistaken.

Many devout believers would be very disappointed to hear that. In my opinion, it is obvious that a great many religious traditions rely completely upon the supernatural for their entire existence. The very few which do not, are the only technicality holding your statement within the realm of accuracy. The link between the supernatural and religion is deep and rich in history. To deny it, on the basis of a few exceptions, does not seem intellectually honest to me.

Quote:If he isn't real then regardless if the person credits a god or credits his own wisdom, the end result is the same.

I think that if an individual seeking power does not claim supernatural authority, he is likely to be received quite differently than one who does. Even the uneducated and poor can discern the ability to resist a mere man, while tales of the indomitable supernatural may hold back their revolt. I do not think it is accurate to claim that there is no obvious difference between the two scenarios. They do not share the same probability in turning out one way or another.

Quote:It makes no sense to exclude the "religious " from the debate on the grounds they are "religious", but then let someone with an even deadlier idea talk because he doesn't credit the super natural.

I think it makes a great deal of sense to exclude anyone who claims faith is a means of learning literal truth. Simply being "religious" does not necessarily mean that one considers faith to be a virtue. That is hardly a concession on my part, since faith is my enemy, not people associating with a particular organization.

Those who think that they can merely believe as they wish, and that this makes their belief literally true and unquestionable, cannot be trusted with anything of major importance. Certainly not weapons of mass destruction in particular. Excluding them in this case is a matter of survival.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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02-02-2014, 08:19 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(02-02-2014 03:42 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Also technology has cured many of the problems which lead to the problems in the past so Tech has replaced Faith so much so that having Faith to heal a persons sight may seen out of this world to most people.

I don't think I understand what you are saying here. In what way has technology replaced faith?

Quote:I also don't think this kind of spreading of information makes sense if god really wanted people to know about it, and believe it. I think a powerful god like that, would do better. I really don't think it would be any trouble for him.

Quote:This is a constant problem atheist have. You've never been God so why on earth do you think you know how one would behave?

I do not think pointing out the ease in which unlimited power is applied says anything about the mind of god. Neither does pointing out that the bible is piss poor when it comes to relying accurate information.

The actual word of an omnipotent being, would be indisputable, would contain no mistakes or contradictions, and would have no rival texts. No evidence against it would exist, and conclusive and demonstrable evidence in its favor would abound. There would not exist any realm of doubt, like the one I currently find myself in.This all becomes the case by definition.

You don't have to be something, to understand its nature.

Quote:Obviously not to everyone cause even then people still rejected him and some even called him a devil.

Actually, their rejection doesn't make any difference at all. Disbelief and accusations of being Satan are not evidence.

Quote:Continue reading, Moses snake ate theirs. In addition, the priest couldn't keep up with Moses "Miracles".

This doesn't address my point. Did they not also perform wonders? Even if their wonders did not compare to that of Moses, how can we not assume they were in some way divine? Do we not make that exact inference when Jesus heals the blind?

Quote:All I know is that if you want to serve God and you are repentant and you know you need God in your life, he will enter your life and give you his name, if you ask.

I did all of these things as a young man. He didn't enter my life, and he didn't give me his name. Nothing happened.

Quote:No, they stop prospering when they stop following.


Quote:I can find no safer places than those where the people at least within the last 2-3 hundred years worshiped Yahweh.

So, did you mean to say originally that following was key, not "worshiping"? Why do you feel safer here? Plenty of people here don't follow, even if they do believe.

Quote:America will also fail because it has shown Yahweh the door. And when America fails the rest of the world is coming with us. But God is patient. Perhaps things will turn around.

America will fail regardless, as do all major powers. They eventually fall. There is no evidence that belief in Yahweh affects this cycle. Many empires have come and gone without a single believer in him.

Quote:God will allow you to spend an eternity in Hell if that's your choice.

I wonder if you would consider such an ultimatum to be a "choice" if it were put to you. If a torturer held a flaming brand to your eye and offered you the "choice" of admitting your guilt, or suffering a severe burn and then blindness, would you really think "well at least he is being reasonable enough to let me choose."

This disgusting charade of free will is not a choice. It is an ugly threat. Do you seriously intend to defend the "reasonable" attitude of an impending psychopath? Not only is this immoral and deeply disturbing, but so are you for believing it to be true. Not only have you been fooled, but you are a fool.

At what point in all of this thuggish brutality are we to be reminded of gods benevolence and love for us?


Quote:Notice what I said carefully, "follow the faith". There is nothing in New Testament that has anything in there about killing people who sin or killing people who are not followers of Christ.

The bible is not made up of only the New Testament. The Old Testament is god's supposed word as well, and therein lies the justification for atrocities.

Quote:But I can tell you with 80% certainty why those things happened. Constantine made people "Christian" which technically you can't do. They were just Pagans with a Christian Label. And the organized church at the time wouldn't even allow them to read the bible for themselves.

You mean to tell me that all the brutality, the torture, the violence, the genocide, the burning and other murders, the crusades, and all the other mountains of suffering and filth are caused by an edict of Constantine, and the banning of the reading of the bible?

What are you talking about? You obviously have absolutely no idea.

Quote:You really have to go to bible study and have some bible instruction. Some parts are literal, some parts are literal but you have to understand the underlying custom. Some are symbolic. some is just historical. You only figure it out with bible study.

It isn't up to me or you to decide which parts of the bible are "symbolic, historical, or literal". I have integrity, and I don't randomly decide which I prefer. No amount of re-reading the bible will grant me higher knowledge of which to apply. If any of the bible were literally true, you would never say such a thing to begin with. You are only compelled to apply the "symbolic" because of the utter nonsense contained within its pages. You can keep your dishonest moderation to yourself. I have standards.

Quote:If you want to not understand anything about the Bible. Just Read it.

The perfect word of an infallible god is mangled beyond all understanding? Who knew.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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02-02-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(02-02-2014 02:51 PM)anidominus Wrote:  I came here to answer as many questions as I could. That's it. I didn't come here to change anyone's mind.



As if you had any answers that anyone here, or any rational person for that matter, would want. Hobo

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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02-02-2014, 10:22 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
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02-02-2014, 10:23 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(02-02-2014 08:25 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(02-02-2014 02:51 PM)anidominus Wrote:  I came here to answer as many questions as I could. That's it. I didn't come here to change anyone's mind.



As if you had any answers that anyone here, or any rational person for that matter, would want. Hobo

Interesting, considering people ask me questions all the time. Looks like 1 more thing you can add to the list of things you know nothing about.
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02-02-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(02-02-2014 10:22 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Unless it's written in scripture. I have no idea so you are correct.
So much for your "1,000 hours" of Bible study, for the second time.

Isaiah 45:15 (New Living Translation)
15 Truly, O God of Israel, our Savior,
you work in mysterious ways.

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02-02-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(02-02-2014 10:23 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(02-02-2014 08:25 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  As if you had any answers that anyone here, or any rational person for that matter, would want. Hobo

Interesting, considering people ask me questions all the time. Looks like 1 more thing you can add to the list of things you know nothing about.

Yes, they ask things like "What the actual fuck do you think you are doing here?". But in the end, that is not actually a question. HoboLaughat

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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