Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
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03-02-2014, 03:25 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(03-02-2014 01:30 PM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  
(02-02-2014 10:34 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Why do theist and deists seem to have the inside track on gods behaviors, wishes, and plans? I am not god, you are not god, god simply does not exist, and you are a hypocritical jackass.

Hmmm, as a deist, I'm pretty sure that we don't claim to have any inside track on god's behaviour, wishes or plans.

Deists believe in a creator that does not communicate to humans through miracles, revelation or ancient texts. Anything we know about the creator is known through the combination of reason/intelligence and observation of that creator's work (aka the Universe). I don't claim to have any inside track to anything. You guys get the same universe to look at as I do.

Not trying to convince anyone, just trying to clarify that you shouldn't lump deists in with religious theists in that regard.

This I like ^ Like that you said it. Like it even more if you really mean it!

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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03-02-2014, 09:08 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(02-02-2014 03:11 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 02:01 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  I think you're missing a "not."

Have you ever heard of the

Treaty with Morocco
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1786t.asp

The Definitive Treaty of Peace 1783
http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=...transcript

The government isn't founded on a religion, its the nation that is... it was a nation of Christian people, not deist or atheist.

Those treaties were not written by the U.S., but by Morocco and Great Britain, respectively.

Many of the founders were deists, a couple may have been atheists.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-02-2014, 10:22 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(03-02-2014 09:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-02-2014 03:11 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Have you ever heard of the

Treaty with Morocco
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1786t.asp

The Definitive Treaty of Peace 1783
http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=...transcript

The government isn't founded on a religion, its the nation that is... it was a nation of Christian people, not deist or atheist.

Those treaties were not written by the U.S., but by Morocco and Great Britain, respectively.

Many of the founders were deists, a couple may have been atheists.


And of course, let's not forget the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed into law by President John Adams.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

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03-02-2014, 10:29 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(03-02-2014 10:22 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 09:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  Those treaties were not written by the U.S., but by Morocco and Great Britain, respectively.

Many of the founders were deists, a couple may have been atheists.


And of course, let's not forget the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed into law by President John Adams.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

I was gonna get around ta bringin' that up.....

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04-02-2014, 01:49 AM
Not Off to a Great Start
The following is a selection of quotes, all of them from Anidominus. I have included blind assumptions, accidentally true statements, intellectual dishonesty, blatant stupidity, contradictions, and entire section on measuring god dicks, and some that are unintelligible and ridiculous.

Quote:I think I do understand to a degree your story. To put it as simply as I can, You were raised a "Insert Domination Here" but you weren't raised a Christian. But that's very common. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Quote:In addition, the information in the bible is fine. You have to study it. You have no interest in studying it. All you want to do is make excuses as to why God isn't showing up in your life (or whoever) on YOUR TERMS.
Quote:Believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and rose again in 3 days.
Have a Heart this is repentant, Patient, charitably, merciful, Forgiving, and seeks Justice.
Trust God
Understand the 10 commandments.
partake in communion at least once.
this is about as simple as it gets. its not hard. and its not like God expects you to be perfect with these.
Quote:You misunderstood my point. Let's assume you were raised a "strict baptist". Baptist is a religion born out of the Christian Faith. Baptism has rules, rituals, and other things in it that have nothing to do with Christianity. You were taught that being a "strict baptist" is being a Christian instead of them focusing on the few things that makes one a Christian.
Quote:You're under the false impression that religion has anything to do with God or the super natural. You are very mistaken.
Quote:You really have to go to bible study and have some bible instruction. Some parts are literal but you have to understand the underlying custom. Some are symbolic. some is just historical. You only figure it out with bible study. I'm about to say some contradictory.... lol If you want to not understand anything about the Bible. Just Read it.

Two assumptions were made here, without evidence, or even the courtesy of a question or two. First, I was not asked what form of Christianity I was a part of. Second, I was not asked if I had read the bible. Both of these blind statements are entirely anus derived.

Anidomnius, you in no way understand my story. If you had experienced my story, we wouldn't be arguing about any of this. Jumping to conclusions about me is rude as well as being dishonest.

You seem to consider yourself the primary authority on who is a Christian, and who does not qualify. You have even provided us with a list of criteria in order for one to be a Christian, as well as denouncing Baptists as non-Christians. You lack both the authority and the common sense required to make judgement of this kind. Baptists are most definitely Christian, even if they don't match your custom definition. It isn't you who gets to decide how worshiping Jesus Christ is valid or not, it is the prerogative of those who are worshiping.

You also claim that religion and the supernatural are unrelated. Aside from how common everyday experience in almost any country will instantly dispel this garbage, Christianity cannot survive without god. God is the point. If he isn't real, it is all pointless. The tiny selection of religions without a deity are not enough to save this argument from extinction by natural selection. It just isn't fit enough to survive.

God doesn't want us to follow these tenets perfectly huh? Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." There I was thinking you had read the bible.

Quote:The thing is, if you don't' know what God is, then exactly what evidence do you look for?
Quote:There is a difference between knowing I can't disprove something and being indifferent to it in the first place. To bother trying to disprove it means I care. I don't.
Quote:You're more religious than I am. I have no religion. Nothing is going to change my mind about Yahweh.
Quote:I can only answer these kinds of questions from the perspective Yahweh. Technically there is no way I can answer this because you are asking me these questions as if I believe these other gods are real.

You do not have any evidence. You do not respect evidence. Your belief does not require evidence. You point this out without my help as you go along. Indeed, what evidence would we look for if we don't understand the nature of god? Well first I have to wait for people like you to pull a definition out of their ass. I suppose that's alright though, because you "don't care" anyway.

You actually managed to accidentally accuse me of things you do. You are more religious than I am, not the other way around. You are the Christian, I am the Atheist. It really isn't difficult to understand. Reflecting your bullshit onto me is obvious, ineffective, juvenile, and a waste of time.

We are well aware that you have only one perspective. "Nothing" is ever going to change your mind. I don't think you realize just how stupid that really is, since you have been familiar with it from your earliest years. Can you imagine any sane and intelligent person making the same claim about politics or history? "I believe that China is an island located in the Pacific Ocean. I have faith in that proposition and there is nothing you could ever do or say that would change my mind." Such a person would remain an ignoramus even if he were shown every map in the world, and then brought to Asia to visit China personally. The point is so basic, it makes my brain hurt to think that you missed it. You need REASONS for what you believe to be true. If you don't have any good ones, you are not an adult thinking person. You are an imaginative child who never learned to distinguish the monster under his bed, from a discarded coat he threw onto the floor. It isn't about being vindicated in an argument. It's about actually knowing genuine truth.

Quote:I have no desire to debunk anything in the Qur'an. I just don't care.
Quote:I don't even know what claims Allah makes. Really, I just don't care about Islam. Does Allah lay claim to healing the blind?

It is almost comical, how inconsistent you are. I don't even think you realize why this is an inconsistent view.

When you share Christianity with others, you provide them with claims. So does Islam. You don't seem to understand, that when you dismiss Islam completely, without possessing any actual information about it, with an attitude of "I don't care", everyone can do the same to your faith. You have a double standard. Your claims are valid, but anyone else who believes something, you "don't care". Well guess what. I don't care about your faith. Until you give me a good reason why I should believe you instead of a Muslim, I have no patience for you.

Quote:What's the difference? A god that doesn't exists or fairy that doesn't exists? Its all the same. If Allah was imaged to look like Tinkerbell would there be fewer people involved in Islam? I doubt it.
Quote:When I observe this word and I lay out all the reasons for everything one thing is crystal clear. Every thought, every saying, every law, every wish, everything goes back to some belief that can not be proven.
Quote:I've told you Dark especially that I don't give a good god damn about these other gods.
Quote:The only thing I can say to that is to look at the results of the faith. Look at what happens when the people who claim the faith follow the faith. If it leads to f-up situations then avoid it I suppose.
Quote:People in the US are no longer use to requiring Faith to keep themselves well. They just go to the doctor and get a shot or a pill. I don't need to have faith that this staph infection will go away. I just go get a shot.

You unknowingly say a lot of true things, which directly conflict with your main arguments. There is no distinction between different mythical beings when it comes to evidence. The initial leap of faith, is by definition lacking in any evidence at all.

The results of faith are worth a look at, but I have not yet heard any adequate explanation when it comes to religious atrocities. You don't seem to have one. If we took your statement at face value, and looked directly at the results of faith, we would find a whole lot more than just loving your neighbor once in a while. Many of us Atheists have done this. It remains one of the central reasons that I do not believe, and I consider faith to be harmful and immoral.

Quote:When you find a good woman you don't need another one. No point in chasing another skirt tail if you're happy with the one you have.
No, why would I? I know Yahweh is God. The Force is strong in me. lol
Quote:Minus the Devil cause Yahweh says he exist the answer is No Demonstrated Power. Where is the book of Santa? Where is the book of fairies? What is the book of goblins? What are their claims. Even Satan has a book. If forgot the name. "Do as thou wilt" I think is the name of it.
Quote:Where are these other gods? What are their claims? Have they demonstrated their power? Where is it written? Where are the prophets of Allah? Dagon? Zeus? Bhal? No, I need none of these gods.
Quote:What do they claim? I've been asking for the claims of these other gods and no one can seem to point to a god that even claims as much Yahweh. Its claiming something that hard? It should be easy so I should see lots of claims.
Quote:You people are the ones who keep asking me about these other gods. I've told you Dark especially that I don't give a good god damn about these other gods. I don't care. But you people keep asking me about them. So then I ask you what are the claims of these gods. You would freaking think if a entity wanted to be known as god that it would at least have some damn claims on the table but you guys can't even turn those up. So if a god is too impotent to even make a claim, which is the easiest thing anyone can do, why should I give it the time of day?
Quote:What is it about this that you people don't get? YOU are asking me about these other gods. If those gods exists, then it would stand to reason that would have said something about themselves. I know claims don't mean anything. I know anyone can make a claim. I've said that plenty of times but either your ears are clogged with wax or you don't know English. It doesn't matter to me which because the end result is the same. Why would I give any god the time of day who can't even supply 1 claim to his power. I have a book that has a collection of approximately 40-50 independent authors regarding the power of one God. I have the experience of myself and my family. I Know the people Israel exists because they are still here to this present day and may of them can trace their history back to Abraham. If you are going to constantly throw these other gods in my face at least have some claims to go with them. Its not my fault you people can't see the power of God in your life. I can't help you with that. But if you want to tell me about other gods then give me a good reason to bother with them. You say claims are easy, then act like it. What are the freaking claims? Who are the prophets? Where is their word? I'm not looking that crap up because I don't care. If you want to introduce the other gods to me then fine, but don't do a half-ass job of it and expect me to pay it any attention.
Quote:Continue reading, Moses snake ate theirs. In addition, the priest couldn't keep up with Moses "Miracles".
Quote:It does address your point. Yahweh proved he was more powerful. If all you know is snake oil salesman then fine. But when the real deal comes along and actually solves your problem. Recognize it.

We have endured a mountain of bluster and ridiculous complaints on this topic. You still utterly fail to understand simple principles.

1. Claims are not evidence in and of themselves.
2. Belief in claims is not evidence.
3. There is no evidence to say which claims may be divine, and which may be manufactured by humans.
4. The biggest and most bad ass story isn't true by default.

You continually blur the line on whether or not you believe in other gods. You say that "god" can be redefined. No. If we intend to have a conversation among educated adult people, it ought to retain its original definition. You can redefine individual words from the bible all you want, but that doesn't make your view anything other than a bastard interpretation.

Arguments from authority, which you find so compelling, are not remotely backed by anything demonstrable. Anyone knows this who has heard from a parent the infamous "Because I said so!". You believe because you think god said so, and he is the biggest and the baddest god, so you better do what he says. If you don't, hell awaits. I could literally describe the despotism that once was strong in Iraq under Saddam Hussein, and it would need only a transference of "Saddam" for "god" to be identical to your own religious view.

Quote:Me a tiny child? You're the one who doesn't have sense enough not to look for water in the desert.
Quote:But I can tell you with 80% certainty why those things happened. Constantine made people "Christian" which technically you can't do. They were just Pagans with a Christian Label. And the organized church at the time wouldn't even allow them to read the bible for themselves.
Quote:So either Yahweh is a liar you're not who you think you are. Guess which one I'm betting on? You're like the Rich Young Ruler who thought he had it all and had done everything right, but he had a problem and when it was exposed, he walked away.
Quote:Says the man who doesn't mind sending people to a cage to rot away if they break a law.

These are the ones that I found so ridiculous that they warranted special notice.

I called you a tiny child, because you are so childishly willing to believe in claims merely because you think they come from gods. You are impressed by arguments from authority. That is not an adult perspective. As for what searching for a water source in the desert has to do with that, I don't think anyone will ever know. It isn't even related, let alone some form of explanation or rebuttal. Any random sentence would have sufficed to equal the quality of your response.

I actually laughed out loud when I read your response to my question regarding religious atrocities. When I asked you what I am to make of them when it comes to examining the results of faith, you responded with the second quote just above. Your first mistake was admitting you were only 80% certain of your explanation. Why only 80%? Even if you have never even considered the question before, you have access to the entire internet. You could easily spend some private time studying the subject while forming an informed and educated opinion. Rather, you stuck with a 20% uncertainty admission, which preceded the most wonderful non-answer I have every had the pleasure to read on this forum.

Rather than address the religious beliefs that excused, endorsed, and executed atrocities such as the crusades, the inquisition, and the systematic burning of witches, you stated that these events were a result of the Emperor Constantine's edicts concerning the status of Christianity in the Roman Empire. That, in combination with the illegality of owning a bible in English at that time, was your entire explanation. It was no explanation at all. It neither asserted nor rebutted any point. It was a clumsy evasion at best, and a willful attempt to avoid the issue at worst. What is so difficult about remaining directly on topic, and answering simple questions?

After presenting me with two wild and uncalled for conclusions, that either god is a liar, or I am not aware of my own nature, you referred to me as being similar to "The Rich Young Ruler", as though we all know which one you happened to be talking about. Your two conclusions made two basic false assumption, that by dismissing claims about god, I dismiss that god literally as an existent entity, and that those claims actually originated from him. Neither one is grounded in evidence, and has been well addressed before now. As to "The Rich Young Ruler", where in the hell are you going with this? Yet again I am forced to conclude that you are desperate for something to say, and it doesn't matter if it makes sense anymore. What ruler? From what country? At what time period? Either explain it, or don't mention it.

Rather than come up with an answer concerning the morality of threats of atrocities from god, you decided to just accuse me of a random position, which I do not hold nor have I ever even mentioned. God is excused his crimes, and scrutiny of them is abandoned, because Dark Phoenix must be in support of imprisonment and cruelty to condemned criminals. That bastard. How dare he judge god's actions, when he obviously hopes prisoner's suffer in prison until they die! This is in the grand intellectual tradition of "I know you are, but what am I?" This isn't a game of hot potato, and when you feel uncomfortable you reduce yourself to random accusations that are designed to change the subject. Even if you wanted to go that route, at least choose a position that you actually know to be true. Making one up is just shameless dishonesty, with the added humiliation of revealing your own desperation.

Quote:When ever you use language which suggest what God could do to achieve some Goal, especially his own. You're basically telling him how he should run his business. "This ought to be easy for you.... That ought to be simple. Why don't you do it this way?"
Quote:So either Yahweh is a liar

It seems you are willing to be hypocritical as well as inconsistent. You make it clear that you consider even reasoning based on the nature of god to be arrogant conjecture, yet here you are claiming that, given certain circumstances, he must be a liar. Here is yet another double standard, where your beliefs, and even the right to make logical statements about behavior, are only valid when they come from you.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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10-02-2014, 07:05 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2014 07:11 PM by rampant.a.i..)
Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(23-01-2014 12:34 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 12:11 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  2. If God created me with free will, why does he insist on controlling my life after all?

From my earliest years I was absolutely certain that I was not free in any sense. Being a child is not free. Your parents dictate everything. I couldn't understand why my teachers at church kept telling me that God had given me my "Freedom". God seemed to represent the captivity of childhood without the possibility of growing up one day.

God also had supposedly given me a long and difficult list of responsibilities, rules, and absolute commandments. He then made clear a profoundly horrific series of punishments to be liberally inflicted upon me should I stray from his laws. He offered freedom with one hand, and took it away completely with the other. If I were to follow this plan with exactness, I would never be without the strictest parent of all. He would never grow old, and would never allow me to be my own man.

I knew instinctively that having freedom to do only a select group of things, is not freedom at all. It is an existence at the mercy of he who creates the conditions. To call it freedom is a ridiculous masquerade.

I didn't like the implications of God being necessary to grant me my freedom to begin with. This automatically placed God in a dominant position over me, free to impose his will upon my life regardless of my own desires. Were this situation to be true, and instead of God a man ruled over me, it would be considered justice to escape or resist him by any means necessary. Slavery is decried as a crime of intense seriousness and lack of human empathy, except for when the taskmaster is divine.

God has a say in absolutely everything when it comes to the devout. You must surrender your diet, sex life, wallet, and free time unconditionally. You may not think for yourself, rather you must accept the decided doctrine of the church. You must even surrender the last sacred sanctuary of your mind, in the form of torturing yourself with supposedly "dirty thoughts". You are judged not only for your actions, but for the very thoughts, most of which are involuntary and natural, that enter your mind. What greater expression of slavery can exist?

As a teenager I observed the outside world with great jealousy. I had such envy for all the people I saw living their lives according to their own desires and values. I often wondered why they did not show signs of guilt when they so blatantly broke God's laws. Instead, they seemed basically happy. I was deeply jealous of them. I wished deeply and sincerely that I had been born in another family, that I might partake in their happiness. I felt very little hope that I would ever join them and it had not even occurred to me then that I could leave my religion.

Imagine my celebration when I discovered the con, and learned how the church organization had so effectively manipulated me. My money, time, and effort was a resource for the church, rather than it providing me with the spiritual nourishment that it claimed to offer. I was not purchasing a product of happiness with my membership, rather the church was robbing me of my resources without providing any product at all. Worse still they had me convinced that I was undeserving of the good results I signed up for in the first place due to my unworthiness, selfishness, and guilt.

God, as it turned out, had nothing to do with it all. He was merely a smokescreen, granting false authority by association to the swindlers and abuses who took advantage of me.

I have no idea where you get any of this. There are far more laws in the US government governing your behavior than what's in the bible and you could go to Jail for violating any number of them.

Being a Christian is one step up from being an atheist. Its the easiest thing on earth. literally all the rules help you avoid doing stupid stuff in your life or do you think Murder, theft, lying, sex before marriage, envy and all those things works positive wonders for a society?

Name me something an atheist would want to do that I can't do as a Christian?

Get High? Only a matter how.
Sex? Only a matter of circumstance
Walk Naked down the street? Only a matter if its legal in your neighborhood.

Not go to church on Sunday? There is nothing that says you have to go to church on Sunday. It just says to not forsake the gathering of the brethren which could be any Christian social gathering any day of the week..

Dance. Are you serious?

As far as I can tell, there is only two things Christians do that an atheist generally wouldn't do and that's Talk to God and partake in the communion meal. Other than that I don't know. Perhaps I'm missing something.

You may say that Christians have to tithe money. No we don't. We do because we want to because we want to financially grow the kingdom. Some Christians may believe they have to tithe but that requirement was for the Jews. I give to God for the same reason Abel and Abraham gave, neither of whom was under the law.

People who need these rules laid out for them and cannot figure them out on their own honestly scare me.

BTW: The premarital sex I've been having with a Christian woman, multiple times a day for a year is really great. It's fulfilling and meaningful.

Neither one of us has ever been to prison, been involved with drugs, or felt the need to murder or steal, and the only envy we've had to deal with has come from outside: from friends who self-identify as Christian.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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