Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
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23-01-2014, 04:36 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
Quote:Honestly, you have some serious balls here. Where did you happen upon the authority to speak for the entirety of Christianity? It is common knowledge that practically every denomination is out of agreement with others on at least one topic. This doesn't give anyone the right to claim ownership of the concept of Christianity. No doubt I could find someone willing to say the same of you, that you are not a Christian. Would that make you less of a follower of Christ?

You misunderstood my point. Let's assume you were raised a "strict baptist". Baptist is a religion born out of the Christian Faith. Baptism has rules, rituals, and other things in it that have nothing to do with Christianity. You were taught that being a "strict baptist" is being a Christian instead of them focusing on the few things that makes one a Christian.

Quote:This is a great question. I wish more theists asked questions like this. I was willing to accept that my viewpoint of god didn't make him less or more existent. Either he was, or he was not. I decided to investigate, and if I could, discover the truth of his existence. If you stick around here long enough, you will encounter all the arguments for both sides that I did. I discovered that god, although not able to be proven absolutely non-existent, is as likely of being real as Santa Clause, or Zeus. He is a myth, made by men. Proofs be damned, there wasn't even a shred of real evidence that he existed, and there still isn't. In summary, I don't worry about damnation because I literally do not think god is real.

Fair Enough. I disagree that God existence is unlikely but we'll agree to disagree. The thing is, if you don't' know what God is, then exactly what evidence do you look for? How do you search for the proof of something when you don't know what is made from. Its like a person who has never seen a horse before being told that horses are real. He comes to believe they are real but he wants to prove it. And lets say for arguments sake, he has never seen one nor can anyone describe to him what one looks like. Then unless a talking horse scrolls by and identifies himself as a horse, how is he going to know how to even begin looking for evidence which would prove one is real?

Quote:Let me help you put it in perspective, if I can. As a Christian, you are condemned to hell for all eternity by Islam. If it turns out you are wrong, and Allah is king, you are screwed, but I doubt you stay up late every night worrying about the torments of Muslim hell do you? I can hazard a guess that you don't, because you don't believe that Allah is literally existent. You probably assume that he is a myth, made up by man. If I am being accurate, and if not please correct me, you know exactly what it is like to be an Atheist with respect to Islam.

You are correct. But I don't see what is like to be Atheist with respect to Islam because I haven't lived in an area dominated by Islam. I have no desire to debunk anything in the Qur'an. I just don't care. Atheist on the other hand create bibles in of themselves to debate Christians... at least the ones in the US.

Quote:I can't speak for all Atheists, but I can tell you that my one desire is not to spend my life debating the validity of the holy ghost. My point was that you are not even capable of questioning the holy ghost, since to do so is an unforgivable sin.

Why would I question the validity of the Holy Ghost? It makes no sense to me. But generally speaking, like I said I was referring to general life type stuff.

Quote:Give me one good explanation as to how your point has been proven on this subject. What exactly have you managed to explain?

Anything dealing with debating the existence of God has to be one of the most boring things to even mention. I mean really? I don't think when people "break-free" from religion their first thought is, "Let me go question the validity of the Holy Ghost." But I did say, "kind of" prove my point. I understood where you were going its just not one of those things I would think Atheist would be happy to do. I don't think when a group of atheist get together they say, "Let's go question the validity of the Holy Ghost, that out to be interesting." Can you think of anything else?
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23-01-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(23-01-2014 04:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  No, I didn't say that. I said that you describe them the way like they are evil.
Dictators.

I described them. You drew the conclusion that their behavior makes them evil. Like you pointed out earlier, they were just doing their best to try and make me happy, according to what they thought would make me happy. They were not malevolently attempting to ruin my life. No sane parent does.

Hasn't it even occurred to you that a dictator can be benevolent?

(23-01-2014 03:47 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  You are the all time champion of putting words into other people's mouths.
Quote:No, I didn't to this.

You are a liar, even if only by way of incompetence. It is written down for everyone to see.

Quote: According to the Gospel we grow up when we become All-knowing like Him and ALL- mighty like Him. When we become PERFECT we growing-ups.
but when you don't know every consequence of every action you are like little child. Little children do NOT know every consequence of every action/choice

You conveniently didn't mention the part of the doctrine where people who don't comply with god's will don't become like him. If you don't play by the rules, you don't grow up. It's totalitarian, even when you use the Mormon explanation.

Quote:I respect you.

If you respected me, you wouldn't ridicule my story, and tell me that I never had a real testimony. You say you respect me? Bullshit.

Quote:This is disrespect. I don't call you names. You do.

Yes it is. Based on our conversations, I don't think I owe you any respect. In fact, I feel that each and every insult is true and well deserved.

Quote:OK. you know how to show respect. I can learn a lot from you.
Before I was Mormon I was cussing. I don't do it any more. I want to be better then I was before, you like to be lower then you were before.

You don't seem like you are here to learn from anyone. You say you're here to learn truth, but the more you talk, the more you seem like you are here to preach.

As for cussing, don't be a fucking child. Grow up, and learn to handle big people language.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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23-01-2014, 06:55 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(23-01-2014 04:36 PM)anidominus Wrote:  You misunderstood my point. Let's assume you were raised a "strict baptist". Baptist is a religion born out of the Christian Faith. Baptism has rules, rituals, and other things in it that have nothing to do with Christianity. You were taught that being a "strict baptist" is being a Christian instead of them focusing on the few things that makes one a Christian.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. What would you say are the "few things that make one a Christian"?

Quote:Fair Enough. I disagree that God existence is unlikely but we'll agree to disagree. The thing is, if you don't' know what God is, then exactly what evidence do you look for? How do you search for the proof of something when you don't know what is made from.

Right. This is why I think it matters which god, or what kind of god, you are talking about? In your opinion, what is god, and what is the nature of god?

Quote: You are correct. But I don't see what is like to be Atheist with respect to Islam because I haven't lived in an area dominated by Islam. I have no desire to debunk anything in the Qur'an. I just don't care.

We can agree here, when we both say that we do not find Islam compelling. We do not consider it's claims to be truthful, so we don't worry about damnation as a result. What I mean by "what it is like to be an Atheist" is this attitude. I do not find any argument for Christianity, or the existence of god, to be compelling. I dismiss it, just like we both dismiss Islam. We don't necessarily have to live in an Islamic country to come to that conclusion. We also don't have to be preoccupied with always explaining why we don't believe all the time, as no doubt we might have to if we did live in an Islamic country.

Quote: Atheist on the other hand create bibles in of themselves to debate Christians... at least the ones in the US.

First of all, being an Atheist only means that you don't believe in god, and by extension any religion. It is the "I don't know, but the religious explanation sounds crazy and illogical" position. We don't claim to have all the answers, so we don't have any doctrines to teach. Perhaps our only common cause is to promote using evidence and reason as means for learning truth, rather than faith and superstition.

It's all about the "burden of proof". When we make a claim about something in the universe, the burden of showing some evidence for the claim is on the person who makes the claim, not those who doubt it. Basically, you think there is a god. Ok. It is now up to you to explain that. It isn't my job to disprove it.

Here is an example. Try to disprove the existence of fairies. Prove to me that they are not real. Eventually you will probably reach the conclusion of "Hey, you're the one saying there are fairies, why don't you explain yourself? It isn't my job to disprove your ridiculous, unfounded, ideas."

Quote: Anything dealing with debating the existence of God has to be one of the most boring things to even mention. I mean really? I don't think when people "break-free" from religion their first thought is, "Let me go question the validity of the Holy Ghost." But I did say, "kind of" prove my point. I understood where you were going its just not one of those things I would think Atheist would be happy to do. I don't think when a group of atheist get together they say, "Let's go question the validity of the Holy Ghost, that out to be interesting." Can you think of anything else?

I think it would make far more sense for them to question the validity of the holy ghost when they still believed. The point is to question why we believe what we do. How do I really know what I know? Do I have logic or evidence on my side? Perhaps I did a poor job of explaining my point. All I meant to say, was that Christianity does not promote looking for evidence or thinking for yourself. It does not say to its members "Do you think the holy ghost is real? Do you think it speaks to you? Please, find out for yourself by testing the idea and being skeptical of it." They would never say anything like that. They condemn such questioning as the unpardonable sin. The blasphemy of doubt is not an option. You are told "The holy ghost is simply real. You must believe this if you wish to be Christian." It is dogma, not skeptical inquiry.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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24-01-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(23-01-2014 06:55 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Sorry for the misunderstanding. What would you say are the "few things that make one a Christian"?

Believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and rose again in 3 days.
Have a Heart this is repentant, Patient, charitably, merciful, Forgiving, and seeks Justice.
Trust God
Understand the 10 commandments.
partake in communion at least once.

this is about as simple as it gets. its not hard. and its not like God expects you to be perfect with these.

Quote:Right. This is why I think it matters which god, or what kind of god, you are talking about? In your opinion, what is god, and what is the nature of god?

My point was that you went about it in such a way that it guaranteed failure.

Quote:We can agree here, when we both say that we do not find Islam compelling. We do not consider it's claims to be truthful, so we don't worry about damnation as a result. What I mean by "what it is like to be an Atheist" is this attitude.

I don't even know what claims Allah makes. Really, I just don't care about Islam. Does Allah lay claim to healing the blind?

Quote: as no doubt we might have to if we did live in an Islamic country.

you wouldn't have the option, you'd be killed.

Quote:
It's all about the "burden of proof". When we make a claim about something in the universe, the burden of showing some evidence for the claim is on the person who makes the claim, not those who doubt it. Basically, you think there is a god. Ok. It is now up to you to explain that. It isn't my job to disprove it.

How do you deal with people who ignore the proof? You do realize there are people who still don't believe we went to the moon.

Quote:Here is an example. Try to disprove the existence of fairies. Prove to me that they are not real.

I would never ask someone to prove the existence of fairies. A) I don't care. If that floats your boat, fine with me. B) If they do exists and can do whatever it is they claim there is nothing I can do to stop them. Why bother? C) If they don't exists I still have to deal with mind of man even as if he never claimed to believe in fairies.

So basically its a conversation I wouldn't have.

Quote:Christianity does not promote looking for evidence or thinking for yourself.

This is complete BS but we'll just agree to disagree. Your religion may have but Christianity isn't about that.

Quote:"Do you think the holy ghost is real? Do you think it speaks to you? Please, find out for yourself by testing the idea and being skeptical of it."

Do they do this with the "scientific method"? Meaning are scientist taught to question this method? Are scientist taught to question E=MC2? You don't promote the question of things that have been validated. Either through the lab or faith. People just don't do that. Its not a matter of deception, its just not done. When you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what you are actually doing is 1) affirming you believe the Holy Spirit which can only be verified via the heart which no man can do. 2) Then turning your back on the Holy Spirit, thus God, and calling him a liar to his face which is very stupid considering you already verified his presence. This is the same reason it makes no point in praying for Satan. He's a blasphemer.

If you've never believed via the heart then you can question the Holy Spirit all you want.
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24-01-2014, 02:42 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2014 02:45 PM by Timber1025.)
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(24-01-2014 12:59 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
Quote:"Do you think the holy ghost is real? Do you think it speaks to you? Please, find out for yourself by testing the idea and being skeptical of it."

Do they do this with the "scientific method"? Meaning are scientist taught to question this method? Are scientist taught to question E=MC2? You don't promote the question of things that have been validated. Either through the lab or faith. People just don't do that. [b] Its not a matter of deception, its just not done. When you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what you are actually doing is 1) affirming you believe the Holy Spirit which can only be verified via the heart which no man can do. 2) Then turning your back on the Holy Spirit, thus God, and calling him a liar to his face which is very stupid considering you already verified his presence. This is the same reason it makes no point in praying for Satan. He's a blasphemer.

If you've never believed via the heart then you can question the Holy Spirit all you want.

That statement, and entire paragraph for that matter, is one of the most insane things I have seen posted here. The connection between your brain and your fingers at the keyboard while writing that babble must have been a few neurons short of a synapse! If we can validate things by using faith then this lovely world we live in is in a shitload of trouble!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-01-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(24-01-2014 02:42 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 12:59 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Do they do this with the "scientific method"? Meaning are scientist taught to question this method? Are scientist taught to question E=MC2? You don't promote the question of things that have been validated. Either through the lab or faith. People just don't do that. [b] Its not a matter of deception, its just not done. When you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what you are actually doing is 1) affirming you believe the Holy Spirit which can only be verified via the heart which no man can do. 2) Then turning your back on the Holy Spirit, thus God, and calling him a liar to his face which is very stupid considering you already verified his presence. This is the same reason it makes no point in praying for Satan. He's a blasphemer.

If you've never believed via the heart then you can question the Holy Spirit all you want.

That statement, and entire paragraph for that matter, is one of the most insane things I have seen posted here. The connection between your brain and your fingers at the keyboard while writing that babble must have been a few neurons short of a synapse! If we can validate things by using faith then this lovely world we live in is in a shitload of trouble!

You need to be beaten with the whip of context, but you're not worth the time.
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24-01-2014, 03:32 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(23-01-2014 03:47 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  You conveniently didn't mention the part of the doctrine where people who don't comply with god's will don't become like him. If you don't play by the rules, you don't grow up. It's totalitarian, even when you use the Mormon explanation.

If I chose to lie all the time I will never become an honest person.
If I chose to hurt others I will never become kind and compassionate person.
If I choose not to obey eternal laws I will never become PERFECT person(God) because Gods are those who OBEY eternal laws and that is why They are PERFECT.
If I choose to serve others I will become kind person.
If I choose to tell the truth I will become an honest person.
If I choose to obey eternal laws I will become perfect being(God)

(23-01-2014 03:47 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  As for cussing, don't be a fucking child. Grow up, and learn to handle big people language.
To cuss is not a sign of being a big person. It is a sign of being a weak person. You can not control yourself. It is being weak and childish.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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24-01-2014, 03:32 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(24-01-2014 03:26 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 02:42 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  That statement, and entire paragraph for that matter, is one of the most insane things I have seen posted here. The connection between your brain and your fingers at the keyboard while writing that babble must have been a few neurons short of a synapse! If we can validate things by using faith then this lovely world we live in is in a shitload of trouble!

You need to be beaten with the whip of context, but you're not worth the time.

And you need to be sliced with Occam's razor. Drinking Beverage

You clearly do not understand either science or critical thinking. Science is all about questioning; we are, in fact, taught to question E = mc².

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-01-2014, 03:38 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(24-01-2014 03:26 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 02:42 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  That statement, and entire paragraph for that matter, is one of the most insane things I have seen posted here. The connection between your brain and your fingers at the keyboard while writing that babble must have been a few neurons short of a synapse! If we can validate things by using faith then this lovely world we live in is in a shitload of trouble!

You need to be beaten with the whip of context, but you're not worth the time.

No amount of context can make the majority of your responses worthy of any attention. I will say that the "context" of comparing proof of moon missions and proof of god was priceless.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-01-2014, 03:40 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(24-01-2014 03:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 03:26 PM)anidominus Wrote:  You need to be beaten with the whip of context, but you're not worth the time.

And you need to be sliced with Occam's razor. Drinking Beverage

You clearly do not understand either science or critical thinking. Science is all about questioning; we are, in fact, taught to question E = mc².

You do question e-mc2? Must be a real short session. lol In all the things I've read and watched I've never seen that questioned. I have seen them deal with theories (like for example string theory) that put e=mc2 (not saying string theory does) in to question but never a serious discussion about the formula.

And what about the scientific method? They question that as well? Just asking. lol
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