Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
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27-01-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(26-01-2014 04:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 03:47 PM)anidominus Wrote:  What do they claim? I've been asking for the claims of these other gods and no one can seem to point to a god that even claims as much Yahweh. Its claiming something that hard? It should be easy so I should see lots of claims.

The claims are unimportant in that they prove nothing, nothing at all.

Translation: I can't find a god that even claims as much.

So its obvious if they are not claiming it, they've never done it considering they suppose to be "gods".
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27-01-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(27-01-2014 11:38 AM)anidominus Wrote:  Translation: I can't find a god that even claims as much.

So its obvious if they are not claiming it, they've never done it considering they suppose to be "gods".

It doesn't matter. There is no evidence that God exists that doesn't require you to assume he exists in the first place. No one cares if YHWH sounds cooler than Thor, since there's no evidence either of them actually existed.
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27-01-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(27-01-2014 10:56 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 03:47 PM)anidominus Wrote:  What do they claim? I've been asking for the claims of these other gods and no one can seem to point to a god that even claims as much Yahweh.

What are you, a tiny child? Do you reserve your belief for the most impressive boaster? You actually base your entire life, and the supposed one after, on whichever sales pitch you like the most? I don't understand how you can possibly call yourself an adult thinking person.

Quote: Its claiming something that hard? It should be easy so I should see lots of claims.

You have a wonderful knack for pointing out the flaws in your own thinking. Of course it's easy to make a claim. Making a claim with evidence, proof, or even a little bit of reason is an entirely different matter. I could claim to live on the moon for Christ's sake!

Me a tiny child? You're the one who doesn't have sense enough not to look for water in the desert.

You people are the ones who keep asking me about these other gods. I've told you Dark especially that I don't give a good god damn about these other gods. I don't care. But you people keep asking me about them.

So then I ask you what are the claims of these gods. You would freaking think if a entity wanted to be known as god that it would at least have some damn claims on the table but you guys can't even turn those up. So if a god is too impotent to even make a claim, which is the easiest thing anyone can do, why should I give it the time of day?

All these freaking thinking atheist and none of you are intelligent enough to understand that. smh.
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27-01-2014, 11:55 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(26-01-2014 01:08 PM)anidominus Wrote:  My parents gave me the faith much the same way they gave me life.

In your opinion, is Christianity natural from birth, or does one have to be taught it? If Christianity is true, why is it not naturally known? Why do children not automatically believe in god when they are born?

Quote: I can not see life. I can not feel it, touch it, or hear it, but I see the evidence of its power all around me.

This is really stupid. What do you call what you feel, touch, and hear right now? Its life. Life doesn't have "power". It isn't an entity that can possess things.

Quote: Likewise, faith is kind of like life. You can't sense it but you can see it in the lives of the people who have it, who demonstrate its power. You hear about it within the context of the struggles of your family and other families.

Faith is literally nothing like life. As you put it before, life has quite a bit of proof when it comes to supporting its own existence, while faith in religion has yet to prove it has any validity at all.

Since you seem to so easily confuse trust, hope, and faith, I will explain. Hope, or confidence, in one's own person is healthy and helpful in life, even when it is not rational. We all continue to fight for our survival, even though we know we are in a losing game. Trust in another person, although not always advisable, is sometimes a huge benefit as well. This can be true even when we have no factual evidence that they will follow through on our trust.

Faith in god, and religion, is quite different. It's slight benefits are not only not worth the trouble, but are entirely illusory. For example, there is no denying the dulling effect of death when one believes in an afterlife. However, this comes at the price of believing something that is obviously a man made fabrication. In other words, the man who trusts a friend might actually have his friend follow through and benefit his life, while those who trust in religion will have no such real comfort. Their comfort is in delusion, like an old man who begins to see hallucinations of his late wife which give him comfort, rather than reminding himself that she is gone.

Those of us who do not believe, have chosen to abandon this false consolation. We would rather struggle on in reality, than believe fairy tales, even if they would make us feel better. We want nothing to do with delusion.

Quote: When someone wants to serve God he is just and he will kick-start their faith by announcing his name and demonstrating his power as he does throughout scripture. Let Go of what you think you know and he will demonstrate his power to you.

Ok. Here you are just talking directly via your anus. Did god announce his name to you? How did he demonstrate his power to you?

Also, don't be giving us any of this "let go of what you think you know" garbage. If we have evidence for something, trust me, we are not gonna let go of it in a hurry. As you have probably noticed, we really care about evidence, proof, and reasoning skills.

Quote: Why is it wrong to kill, steal, or bear false witness? Can you prove these behaviors are wrong? Because it hurts people? Why should that matter? I could continue to ask you why until you throw your hands up in disgust.

This is also really stupid. You know full well why these things are considered wrong by humans. Nobody wants to live in a world where they can get murdered, stolen from, and convicted on false testimony, or at least not very easily. We, the humans, use something called morality to help make this world a good place for as many people as we can.

Honestly, your patronizing "Why should it matter?" is just plain dumb.

Quote: Science can not answer these questions. If you look for these answers in "science" you will never find it. You will not find right and wrong in science, it is not there. To look for it there is to guarantee failure.

Here you betray your lack of understanding when it comes to science. Science can answer moral questions just fine. Here is an example.

There are more than 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly. As humans, we can understand the nature of what it is to have needs and interests in this world, based on intelligence and the capability to feel suffering and have happiness. Thus we learn that even the fly is subject to morality. It can experience suffering, and achieve some level of happiness. A human blastocyst is a collection of 150 cells. It has no means of experiencing anything. Thus we learn that more suffering is inflicted upon the world when we swat a fly, than when we conduct stem cell research.

Stem cell research is not immoral, and it is certainly not murder. Science was, and is, capable of answering this question perfectly well, even if they need to repeat it slowly and often for the benefit of the Christian Right.

Quote: God claims he made me (the human race) in his image. All throughout history man has found a reason to find a God to worship. Why?

This is a great question. Before I answer though, I can tell you already think you know the answer. No doubt, you think that this is evidence of god's existence. Why else would humanity all throughout the ages worship gods?

I have to, tedious though it may be, point out that the number of believers in any given claim has literally no effect on truth. For example, The Flat Earth Society (Take a guess at what they believe.) would still be wrong about the shape of the earth no matter if they had one member or four billion. Their belief is not evidence.

Even if world wide belief did prove god was real, why would it prove Yahweh is real? Are there not several billion Muslims? Were their not millions of Aztecs? Didn't the mighty Greek and Roman Empires once worship their own pantheon of gods? Did the belief of any of these people make Yahweh the one true god?

Quote: You would think that if we were all animals then all our morality would be as the animals, purely instinctive completely severing our own ends. If a human behaved this way we would call him evil.

If you don't think at least some ethics are innate in humanity, explain to me why you didn't kill your mother when you were a child? How did you know that would be wrong? Did somebody have to tell you that?

Quote: Where are these other gods? What are their claims? Have they demonstrated their power? Where is it written? Where are the prophets of Allah? Dagon? Zeus? Bhal? No, I need none of these gods.

Don't blame us for your ignorance. We have done our reading. You have managed to be ignorant of the entire Middle East and their beliefs, and you don't even care. The prophets of Allah, in particular, have been quite a world problem recently. Don't you watch the news? As far as the others, do you really expect to find millions of modern day believers in Zeus? Even the Ancient Greeks stopped believing in him long before their empire fell. The only reason you aren't forced to listen to believers in Zeus is because too much time has passed, and the belief has died out.

Quote: Yahweh is the only God. I know of his people Israel. I know of their history. I know of their prophets and the mighty works of God they have done. Where is it written? It is written in the books of the bible. The people of Israel do not deny their history.

Wait, didn't you just name several other gods?

(26-01-2014 01:08 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Where are the prophets of Allah? Dagon? Zeus? Bhal?

Oh yeah. You did.

You need to understand, simply owning a bible, like everybody else, doesn't mean you have an accurate account of the history of Israel. If you weren't ignorant of the scholarly work that has been done, you would know just how much of the bible is false or historically incorrect. Even the Jewish Archaeologists, after years of digging around Mount Sinai, eventually conceded that there was no slavery in Egypt and no Exodus to Mount Sinai. It was all pieced together, rather stupidly, by several amateur historians quite some times after the supposed events.

It turns out that Israel does, in fact, deny it's Bible history.

Quote: I know of Jesus Christ. I know he healed the sick, walked on water, and cured the blind. And even though he wrote nothing about himself but his followers believed in him and wrote about him on their own accord. Jesus only command was share the Good News. Jesus put no man to the sword yet his name is known all over the word in different cultures and different languages. Why would I accept anything else?

Really? You know he healed the sick, walked on water, and cured the blind? You were there? All you have is the same non evidence that we all do, the Bible. The New Testament isn't any better, sorry. It also was pieced together years later, by amateur historians, who only had word of mouth to go on.

Even if those things did happen, what do they prove to us? Why do they prove that Jesus was god? Could he simply be a minor god with some power? Even the priests of the Pharaoh were able to do wonders against Moses in the Old Testament. How do we know Jesus was not doing likewise, engaging in sorcery? Why do miracles not happen now? It's more than a bit convenient that no one is claiming to perform miracles of healing in the Information Age, where everyone has a camera and could document it.

All of that besides, if he was god, why not heal blindness? Why heal one man when you possess the power to heal the world?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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27-01-2014, 12:00 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
Fair enough. We both have made our opposing positions clear. You have demanded a recitation on the claims of other gods, and I, as well as others, have stated that we don't consider their claims to be evidence, and so we don't bother presenting them for you. We are at an impasse on this issue.

(27-01-2014 11:46 AM)anidominus Wrote:  I've told you Dark especially that I don't give a good god damn about these other gods. I don't care. But you people keep asking me about them.

Then I must tell you, Anidominus, that I don't give a good god damn about your god. I don't care, but you, and others like you, keep bothering me about him. Wink

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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27-01-2014, 12:10 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(27-01-2014 12:00 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Fair enough. We both have made our opposing positions clear. You have demanded a recitation on the claims of other gods, and I, as well as others, have stated that we don't consider their claims to be evidence, and so we don't bother presenting them for you. We are at an impasse on this issue.

(27-01-2014 11:46 AM)anidominus Wrote:  I've told you Dark especially that I don't give a good god damn about these other gods. I don't care. But you people keep asking me about them.

Then I must tell you, Anidominus, that I don't give a good god damn about your god. I don't care, but you, and others like you, keep bothering me about him. Wink

Was there a commandment broken here by our self righteous christian friend? I do think so! You are off the hook DP for doing the same though. This anidumbass does not seem to understand what validity a "claim", and only a "claim" brings to the table.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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27-01-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(27-01-2014 12:00 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Fair enough. We both have made our opposing positions clear. You have demanded a recitation on the claims of other gods, and I, as well as others, have stated that we don't consider their claims to be evidence, and so we don't bother presenting them for you. We are at an impasse on this issue.

(27-01-2014 11:46 AM)anidominus Wrote:  I've told you Dark especially that I don't give a good god damn about these other gods. I don't care. But you people keep asking me about them.

Then I must tell you, Anidominus, that I don't give a good god damn about your god. I don't care, but you, and others like you, keep bothering me about him. Wink

Well take it up with the people who bother you. I have not started a single thread on these forums trying to get anyone to believe anything. My very first post was answering the contradictions posted on the main site. All my other post have been about answering questions that people have. Not Once have I originated any conversation where I try to actively get anyone to believe anything. And I won't because I know how pointless that is because 99% of you, as far as faith in God are concerned, are completely dead inside. Only God himself can resurrect that kind of death and until you're ready to be alive, trust me, he won't bother you either.
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27-01-2014, 12:21 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(27-01-2014 12:12 PM)anidominus Wrote:  And I won't because I know how pointless that is because 99% of you, as far as faith in God are concerned, are completely dead inside. Only God himself can resurrect that kind of death and until you're ready to be alive, trust me, he won't bother you either.

How do you know what God will or will not do? How do you know where and with whom he will place his efforts with? Can he resurrect this kind of death - COGNITIVE BRAIN DEATH.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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27-01-2014, 12:26 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(27-01-2014 12:12 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Well take it up with the people who bother you.

Way ahead of you. Smile

Quote: I have not started a single thread on these forums trying to get anyone to believe anything. My very first post was answering the contradictions posted on the main site. All my other post have been about answering questions that people have. Not Once have I originated any conversation where I try to actively get anyone to believe anything.

I know. I was poking fun, Ani. Besides, not every Christian is as careful as you are, and here isn't the only place I run into them.

Quote: And I won't because I know how pointless that is because 99% of you, as far as faith in God are concerned, are completely dead inside.Only God himself can resurrect that kind of death and until you're ready to be alive, trust me, he won't bother you either.

Some things should stay dead, like faith in god, and zombies.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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27-01-2014, 04:49 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #2
(27-01-2014 11:38 AM)anidominus Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 04:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  The claims are unimportant in that they prove nothing, nothing at all.

Translation: I can't find a god that even claims as much.

So its obvious if they are not claiming it, they've never done it considering they suppose to be "gods".

Claims don't mean anything. Why do you give them any importance? That is just silly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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