Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
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24-01-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 09:49 AM)anidominus Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 02:26 AM)Baruch Wrote:  The point is just wishing something to be true doesn't make it true.



God isn't self evident - if it was we wouldn't be arguing about it for thousands of years and some people have never believed from childhood - its just doesn't come up in their lives.
Others leave faith, not a comparison to other "self evident" truths such as in mathematics one day deciding to abandon 1+1=2.

Its not God's fault that you don't believe whats right in front of you.

Eh...that's your best response ?

This is the same God who tortures children every 45 seconds with malaria fever by designing mosquitos's and plasmodiums to be efficient child killers ?
This is the same God who botches up biological designs in such a way to cause deformities & disabilities ? If God existed then these are Gods fault !

In any case "whats right in front of you" seems to be an evidentialist approach and your denying evidence is even necessary for belief in God ?
According to you "whats right in front of you" (evidence) is not necessary !

Your also contradicting yourself with the explaining faith like explaining a TV to someone who has never seen a TV and no TV available for a demo (eg someone from 500 yrs ago).
Its a poor analogy - The person who has never seen a TV is not responsible for believing in TV's and its not self evident TV's will exist. It may well be impossible to explain a TV to someone 500 years ago - but the person is not obliged to take on faith TV's will exist, believe in TV's or "blame them" for just not understanding the concept of a TV. - TV's are not self evident.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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24-01-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 09:47 AM)anidominus Wrote:  You believe Julius Caesar existed when all you have is people telling you, but you won't believe in God.

So you also believe in the Hindu gods and the pagan gods?

It would explain the second commandment "You shall have no other gods before me"
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24-01-2014, 11:02 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
Quote:'Mathilda' says
This all shows that you need to make irrational choices in order to act rationally.

This isn't the case or its an over extrapolation - Demasio is working with patients with neurological damage eg frontal cortex disconnected from limbic system and such people cannot make decisions.

A more complete neurological explanation for decision making would come from Thinking, Fast and Slow by Kahneman, Daniel. Here there is pathway 1 & pathway 2 decision making. Pathway 1 is the "instinctive emotive path - fast, intuitive,emotive" - can be wrong but its speed & evolutionary survival value selects & benefits over long critical deliberation (perhaps this is a pathway for an emotive faith).
Pathway 2 is the critical, rational path - slow but critical, again selected for due to its ability to form well reasoned outcomes but disadvantage being its slow and often counterintuitive.
Of course these are heuristic pathways not parts in the brain but complex intertwining systems - however it may be this process behind those who think "God is self evident" - they are using a pathway 1 without any critical reasoning.

An example might be seeing a pattern in the clouds which looks like a face - pathway 1 just sees a face. Pathway 2 with analyse the full context and come to the conclusion the face is an illusion - part of the pattern recognition system of the brain over active. Of course we need both systems - if your in the savannah and there is a pattern which induces fear you fight/flight/freeze - not sit there doing philosophy or you might get eaten.
However as we mature as a species we can become aware that much of what we considered intuitive, including God - are just false assumptions. It may have once been intuitive to worship zeus as a god of lightening and Thor as a god of thunder - after all there must be a god behind these natural patterns ! It would have been self evident to have faith in Zeus or Thor because these are the agents behind natural phenomena.

However we can drop these false beliefs once we better understand the patterns and don't need God as an explanation - because it isn't a very good explanation or hypothesis. Hence eventually we end up with a God of the gaps - today God is invoked by faith for anything we cannot explain - like a trump card which solves everything. unfortunately such a belief does not add any explanation.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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24-01-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 10:46 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 09:47 AM)anidominus Wrote:  You believe Julius Caesar existed when all you have is people telling you, but you won't believe in God.

So you also believe in the Hindu gods and the pagan gods?

It would explain the second commandment "You shall have no other gods before me"

anidominus - there is plenty evidence for Julius Caesar from all sorts of independent sources and no evidence for God - what sort of comparison is this ?
In any case even if some of the historical record is wrong for Julius Caesar I don't have a problem with this because writing historical records can be fallible.

Are you claiming the Gospels are comparable to the records of Julius Caesar ?
The Gospels are written decades later, by unknown authors (attributed to todays titles) and filled with contradictions - in no way a comparison

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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24-01-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 11:02 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:'Mathilda' says
This all shows that you need to make irrational choices in order to act rationally.

This isn't the case or its an over extrapolation - Demasio is working with patients with neurological damage eg frontal cortex disconnected from limbic system and such people cannot make decisions.

Yes my post was an over-extrapolation and does not explain the entirety of how the human brain works. I was trying to tone down the details because I was trying to communicate an idea to someone completely led by faith.

I should have said "you need to be able to make irrational choices in order to act rationally".
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24-01-2014, 12:07 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 10:46 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 09:47 AM)anidominus Wrote:  You believe Julius Caesar existed when all you have is people telling you, but you won't believe in God.

So you also believe in the Hindu gods and the pagan gods?

It would explain the second commandment "You shall have no other gods before me"

Do any of these gods walk on water, heel the sick, cure the blind, instantly free a dedicate people (Jews) from a powerful ruler (Egypt)? Which one of these gods boast the claims of Yahweh? Do these gods have 2 billion worshipers world wide? Can you find these gods all over the world? Have any of these gods dedicated themselves to a people, gave them a land, allowed them to be removed from the land for nearly 2,000 years and then have those same people return to that land? Has any of those gods lay claim to have followers that with his might and through faith can raise the dead? Did any of those gods die and resurrect themselves in 3 days? What are the claims of these gods? What are their credentials? Can any of these gods lay claim to having introduce himself to small portion of the population (Jews) and yet have his prophets (from Israel) go through out the world to talk about a God the locals (the gentiles) had no reason to believe in and have himself be the dominate God in that area? Has any of these Gods inspired men to form a county which says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." and have that country become the most powerful country in the world and the most peaceful place in the planet where all people from around the world can come and live in peace? What are the claims of these gods? If they can show me where they have accomplished what Jesus has accomplished then perhaps I will pay them some attention, until then they can kiss me where the sun don't shine.
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24-01-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 11:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 10:46 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  So you also believe in the Hindu gods and the pagan gods?

It would explain the second commandment "You shall have no other gods before me"

anidominus - there is plenty evidence for Julius Caesar from all sorts of independent sources and no evidence for God - what sort of comparison is this ?
In any case even if some of the historical record is wrong for Julius Caesar I don't have a problem with this because writing historical records can be fallible.

Are you claiming the Gospels are comparable to the records of Julius Caesar ?
The Gospels are written decades later, by unknown authors (attributed to todays titles) and filled with contradictions - in no way a comparison

There are about 50 independent sources in the bible (or do you think that was one book written by one person) and millions more around the world about the power Yahweh. So your point is? Like I told the other fella. You don't believe what's right in front of you. I can't help you.
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24-01-2014, 12:26 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2014 12:34 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 12:11 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 11:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  anidominus - there is plenty evidence for Julius Caesar from all sorts of independent sources and no evidence for God - what sort of comparison is this ?
In any case even if some of the historical record is wrong for Julius Caesar I don't have a problem with this because writing historical records can be fallible.

Are you claiming the Gospels are comparable to the records of Julius Caesar ?
The Gospels are written decades later, by unknown authors (attributed to todays titles) and filled with contradictions - in no way a comparison

There are about 50 independent sources in the bible (or do you think that was one book written by one person) and millions more around the world about the power Yahweh. So your point is? Like I told the other fella. You don't believe what's right in front of you. I can't help you.

Quote:anidominus says:
There are about 50 independent sources in the bible

Not on our planet.


In any case - what reliable sources and for which part of the bible ?

Yes - there are some independent sources that some of the kings of Israel existed for example the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III inscription mentioning king yehu and this isn't controversial (and it isn't evidence for God. - no once claims that absolutely everything in the bible is myth - there are kernels of some history)

What "50" are you referring to ?

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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24-01-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 12:26 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 12:11 PM)anidominus Wrote:  There are about 50 independent sources in the bible (or do you think that was one book written by one person) and millions more around the world about the power Yahweh. So your point is? Like I told the other fella. You don't believe what's right in front of you. I can't help you.

There are about 50 independent sources in the bible

Not on our planet.


Well - let's see if he can list em............eh?
Blink

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24-01-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
Quote:anidominus Wrote:
Do any of these gods who instantly free a dedicate people (Jews) from a powerful ruler (Egypt)?

There is no historical or archaeological evidence for the exodus.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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