Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
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25-01-2014, 12:09 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(23-01-2014 02:18 PM)anidominus Wrote:  People use faith all the time, atheist alike. Its how everything huge gets done. Faith got us to the moon.

So, have Faith in God. I don't know how else to explain it.

It doesn't matter "which God".

Ok it's dumb shit like this that fucks me all the way up. I think it's about time we put up some of the older threads that address faith in the important section of this forum. Tired of seeing this mistake and explaining it.

For the record, I hope you don't take offense to the above but your comment merits that response. Faith didn't get anyone to the moon. If anyone has in fact been to the moon, it was due to thing more tangible than faith. A lot of logic and reason backed by very precise complicated calculations led to it. That, is something far above the gamble that faith is.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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25-01-2014, 05:56 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 07:30 PM)natachan Wrote:  
Quote: smh, there is nothing that has dis proven Noah's flood. They have no idea what to even look for to disprove it.

Omg, really?
http://ncse.com/cej/3/3/six-flood-argume...ant-answer
http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter6.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology

That took me zero time. Those are just the first four results I found.

http://ncse.com/cej/3/3/six-flood-argume...ant-answer - He is assuming numbers he couldn't possibly know. He also made one statement about what creationist believe that isn't even true.

http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter6.html - Not understanding the bible doesn't mean whats in it isn't true. Asking questions people can't or don't answer doesn't make your assertions correct.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html - smh, not understanding how something gets done and not having the necessary tools to detect a global flood doesn't mean there wasn't one.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology - I have no idea why you even gave me this link.
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25-01-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 10:11 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 07:01 PM)anidominus Wrote:  So in other words. I have no reason to believe in any of those other gods because.... (either)


1) They have not provided their name.
2) They have not claimed to be God.
3) They have not made any claims regarding their power.
3) They have not demonstrated their power in such a way that they are still relevant.
4) They have not provided any instruction through any means regarding the purpose and plans of this existence.

I'm fairly certain you guys can find a god that can compete with Yahweh. Go ahead. Use those brains.

Yahweh - that is one cool name. lol

I have to say, I don't really understand your line of reasoning here. Are you telling me that all I have to do in order to conscript your belief in a god is to provide you with a name, claims of power and demonstrations thereof, and a set of plans? Is any of this really worthy of captivating one's attention, let alone convincing one to believe? Isn't it at least possible that if I were to do this that I might be making it all up?

If you want someone to trust you as a Doctor you....

Give them your name.
Claim to be a Doctor
Show me your creditians
Demonstrate your capability as a Doctor.

If you want someone to loan you money for a bussiness you....

Give them your name.
Claim you have a business
Show your credentials regarding being able to actually run a business.
Demonstrate your business can make a profit.
Show your business plan.

Any real God can accomplish these things.
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25-01-2014, 06:05 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(25-01-2014 06:23 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 03:54 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Yahweh claims to have flooded the world in the Noach flood - a bold claim.
This claim is falsifiable - making it even bolder !!!

...and the claim has been completely falsified with copious amounts of evidence from biology, archaeology, ecology, geology and over 11,000years of continuous civilizations which bypass the flood period without being effected (eg neolithic cultures around modern day China & Indus valley - an unbroken record - not what would be expected had the bible been true.)

conclusion =
1. Yahweh makes bold falsifiable claims in the bible
2. Claim falsified by multiple rational independent converging sources
3. Bible falsified
4. Yahweh falsified

I noticed anidominus ignored this - I wonder why ?
Still waiting for the 50 independent sources for the bible....

I'm not a Dog. I don't come just because you whistle. I don't have all day to answer questions nor respond to stupid statements. So I answer the ones I want and ignore the rest.
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25-01-2014, 06:24 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(25-01-2014 06:05 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(25-01-2014 06:23 AM)Baruch Wrote:  I noticed anidominus ignored this - I wonder why ?
Still waiting for the 50 independent sources for the bible....

I'm not a Dog. I don't come just because you whistle. I don't have all day to answer questions nor respond to stupid statements. So I answer the ones I want and ignore the rest.

A. Where did I state your a dog ?
B. When did I blow a whistle ?
C. The two questions you ignored happen to be the two most important critical questions, the ones that really shouldn't be ignored
D. Oh, boy they are not stupid statements ! They are critical questions - one falsifying the bible (Noah flood falsification) and the other attempting to be evidentialist (50 independent sources for the bible)
E. A quite aggressive ad hominem response ?
F. conclusion - I'll let the audience decide - I'm not judgmental.


As a background I used to teach biblical studies for 10 years, study the bible every day for years and know it in its original language (at least the old testament)- so I'm no troll.
As it happens the Noach flood story always made me uncomfortable & tried to find solutions even at the height of my orthodox years when religious life went extremely well. Perhaps I managed to ignore it for a few years, then find some metaphorical escape route later on. However at the end of the day cognitive dissonance eats away - it was quite obvious that the Noach flood story was mythology incorporated by the writers of the bible. The prophets believed the story, Jesus believed the story, the story is central to the bible on many levels - but it is fiction - pulling one of the foundations stones from the bibles structure (like a whole chapter - same goes with the tower of babel myth.)

A few more foundations stones and the whole edifice falls apart.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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25-01-2014, 06:39 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(24-01-2014 03:54 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 03:35 PM)anidominus Wrote:  If you want to know about the authors of the bible go look in it.

You guys are not doing really well on those claims. Yahweh is making some bold claims, multiple. Do the prophets of these other gods make such claims? Anyone can make a claim so where are they? Are they too chicken $#!^ to boast about their god?

Yahweh claims to have flooded the world in the Noach flood - a bold claim.
This claim is falsifiable - making it even bolder !!!

...and the claim has been completely falsified with copious amounts of evidence from biology, archaeology, ecology, geology and over 11,000years of continuous civilizations which bypass the flood period without being effected (eg neolithic cultures around modern day China & Indus valley - an unbroken record - not what would be expected had the bible been true.)

conclusion =
1. Yahweh makes bold falsifiable claims in the bible
2. Claim falsified by multiple rational independent converging sources
3. Bible falsified
4. Yahweh falsified

Is this what you've been oh so begging me to respond to? You made a bunch of statements about all the ways they have apparently dis proven the Bible but none of it does such a thing. We don't know enough about that time period to make such claims. And every time you people send me links they all make the same mistakes.

1) Assuming that because the Flood narrative is found in other cultuers the Flood story in the Bible is just a copy. FACT: If your family just got off a boat after the enter planet was flooded you're going to tell that story to your offspring who will tell it to theirs so on and so forth. The flood story may change the farther it gets from ground zero but it happened.

2) Assuming the climate, animal population etc of the planet prior to the flood among other things they couldn't possibly know anything about.
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25-01-2014, 06:43 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(25-01-2014 06:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(25-01-2014 06:05 PM)anidominus Wrote:  I'm not a Dog. I don't come just because you whistle. I don't have all day to answer questions nor respond to stupid statements. So I answer the ones I want and ignore the rest.

A. Where did I state your a dog ?
B. When did I blow a whistle ?
C. The two questions you ignored happen to be the two most important critical questions, the ones that really shouldn't be ignored
D. Oh, boy they are not stupid statements ! They are critical questions - one falsifying the bible (Noah flood falsification) and the other attempting to be evidentialist (50 independent sources for the bible)
E. A quite aggressive ad hominem response ?
F. conclusion - I'll let the audience decide - I'm not judgmental.


As a background I used to teach biblical studies for 10 years, study the bible every day for years and know it in its original language (at least the old testament)- so I'm no troll.
As it happens the Noach flood story always made me uncomfortable & tried to find solutions even at the height of my orthodox years when religious life went extremely well. Perhaps I managed to ignore it for a few years, then find some metaphorical escape route later on. However at the end of the day cognitive dissonance eats away - it was quite obvious that the Noach flood story was mythology incorporated by the writers of the bible. The prophets believed the story, Jesus believed the story, the story is central to the bible on many levels - but it is fiction - pulling one of the foundations stones from the bibles structure (like a whole chapter - same goes with the tower of babel myth.)

A few more foundations stones and the whole edifice falls apart.

No offense, but I really couldn't care less about your credentials. There are idiots (not saying you are one) who have been teaching the bible for 20 years all over place. Its a shame but it happens.

In fact, I personally don't know a single Pastor who has read the bible from cover to cover. Not saying that's the be all end all to knowing the word because it isn't, but I would think if you have been preaching for 10 years you would have done it at-least once. smh
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25-01-2014, 06:44 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(25-01-2014 06:39 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 03:54 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Yahweh claims to have flooded the world in the Noach flood - a bold claim.
This claim is falsifiable - making it even bolder !!!

...and the claim has been completely falsified with copious amounts of evidence from biology, archaeology, ecology, geology and over 11,000years of continuous civilizations which bypass the flood period without being effected (eg neolithic cultures around modern day China & Indus valley - an unbroken record - not what would be expected had the bible been true.)

conclusion =
1. Yahweh makes bold falsifiable claims in the bible
2. Claim falsified by multiple rational independent converging sources
3. Bible falsified
4. Yahweh falsified

Is this what you've been oh so begging me to respond to? You made a bunch of statements about all the ways they have apparently dis proven the Bible but none of it does such a thing. We don't know enough about that time period to make such claims. And every time you people send me links they all make the same mistakes.

1) Assuming that because the Flood narrative is found in other cultuers the Flood story in the Bible is just a copy. FACT: If your family just got off a boat after the enter planet was flooded you're going to tell that story to your offspring who will tell it to theirs so on and so forth. The flood story may change the farther it gets from ground zero but it happened.

2) Assuming the climate, animal population etc of the planet prior to the flood among other things they couldn't possibly know anything about.

The other flood stories predate the Biblical one.

The distribution of animals today belies the flood story , as does all of geology.

You can't actually believe the flood story in the face of all the evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-01-2014, 06:53 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2014 07:06 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(25-01-2014 05:56 PM)anidominus Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 07:30 PM)natachan Wrote:  Omg, really?
http://ncse.com/cej/3/3/six-flood-argume...ant-answer
http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter6.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology

That took me zero time. Those are just the first four results I found.

http://ncse.com/cej/3/3/six-flood-argume...ant-answer - He is assuming numbers he couldn't possibly know. He also made one statement about what creationist believe that isn't even true.

http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter6.html - Not understanding the bible doesn't mean whats in it isn't true. Asking questions people can't or don't answer doesn't make your assertions correct.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html - smh, not understanding how something gets done and not having the necessary tools to detect a global flood doesn't mean there wasn't one.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology - I have no idea why you even gave me this link.

Quote:http://ncse.com/cej/3/3/six-flood-argume...ant-answer - He is assuming numbers he couldn't possibly know. He also made one statement about what creationist believe that isn't even true.
The numbers are not assumed - they are plain to see in the fossil record. They are STAGGERING numbers that could not possibly have lived on the earth at the same time of the imagined flood. There is HUGE amount of data to back this up not just from fossils but coal deposits kilometres thick, marine deposits kilometres thick - just look at the white cliffs of Dover 400meters high (from sea bed) - made from coccoliths, plates of calcium carbonate formed by coccolithophores, single-celled planktonic algae whose skeletal remains sank to the bottom of the ocean during the Cretaceous and, together with the remains of bottom-living creatures, formed sediments. This takes ALOT LONGER than a year or a few years !!!! (many thousands of years)

This is NO FLOOD SENARIO !!!!
I used to read young Earth creationist responses and they were pitifully ignorant of even the most basic geology. (eg John Woodmorappe - always makes me laugh trying to fit the dinosaurs into the ark..."they must have been juveniles" Big Grin) - how to get minus credibility is a few seconds ! - just shows how crazy it gets to reconcile what is clearly a geological/biological falsification of the bible.

....and just for fun, so I'm not accused of misquoting...Big Grin

Quote: John Woodmorappe on October 15, 2013 ....There are only several hundred genera of dinosaurs known.(error) . What’s more, the continuous invalidation of old names largely offsets the continuous discovery of new kinds of dinosaur genera.(error) Only a modest fraction of all dinosaurs reached giant size. (distraction) About 16 percent of dinosaur genera had an adult weight in excess of ten tons, and almost half of dinosaur genera weighed no more than a ton when mature.

However, the foregoing is academic because dinosaurs could have been represented as young..(error) Interestingly, according to the most recent models of dinosaur maturation, even the largest sauropod dinosaurs were no more than several hundred kilograms in weight by the time they were just over a year old,5 which could have corresponded to their time of release from the ark..(error) .(error) .(error)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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25-01-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: Questions That Led Me to Atheism #3
(25-01-2014 06:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  The other flood stories predate the Biblical one.

The distribution of animals today belies the flood story , as does all of geology.

You can't actually believe the flood story in the face of all the evidence.

Well, you can (and a lot of people do), but it takes a lot of willful rejection of said evidence.

I remember back when I still believed that this was the first story in the Bible that I actually questioned. I wondered if I could still be Christian and not believe in it, because I wasn't sure cherry-picking was a good idea. It troubled me quite a bit; both, the absurdity of the whole thing, and the whole problem of evil thing.
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