Questions for Apologists?
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27-07-2012, 11:52 AM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 10:28 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Alright, so I've finally made a list of questions based on some of what you guys brought up.
It's not much, but chances are I'm not going to get all the questions asked or answered.
Once I get answers, I'm going to write them down and them bring them back to this Thread to be analyzed (maybe).

1.) How does God "act" or "think" before spacetime existed?

2.) How is God NOT special Pleading (Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption - Wikipedia)?

3.) What is one property of existence that does not require time?

4.) Is there proof of non-infinite regression?

5.) If God is "Perfect", why does He need worship and adulation? Why did He need to create human beings if He is already perfect?

Then, a personal question -
Why do we claim the same evidence for the existence of God where others use the same evidence for the claim of Gods non-existence?

You are asking these questions of theists, correct? These are non-questions to an atheist.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-07-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 11:28 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  It's the difference between living the truth and living a lie.

If I found that my worldview was false, I would not want to continue living believing that God exists. If it is false, I don't want to believe it.

I applaud you for wanting to know the truth, the absolute answer. But I am coming to find that even people who live in a delusion can live just as happy a life than those who live "truthfully."
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27-07-2012, 12:03 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 10:28 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  It's not much.

So I perceive a serious internal struggle going on here. We might seem to be rather callous and "un-feeling", as after a number of believers showing up here, basically as "trolls", it becomes difficult to discern the difference.

Please be sure and come back, as your "not much" may prove to be "a lot".
If you have not gotten what you want, exactly, could you explain what you would need, and what you "require".

Ultimately, (as WLC admits), faith is not about reason. It's a decision to abandon reason. There may be reasons for that position. ("Love"). However, that human emotion is "deconstructible", (while remaining ultimately valuable).

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-07-2012, 12:28 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 12:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-07-2012 10:28 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  It's not much.

So I perceive a serious internal struggle going on here. We might seem to be rather callous and "un-feeling", as after a number of believers showing up here, basically as "trolls", it becomes difficult to discern the difference.

Please be sure and come back, as your "not much" may prove to be "a lot".
If you have not gotten what you want, exactly, could you explain what you would need, and what you "require".

Ultimately, (as WLC admits), faith is not about reason. It's a decision to abandon reason. There may be reasons for that position. ("Love"). However, that human emotion is "deconstructible", (while remaining ultimately valuable).

As far a serious internal struggle, you are correct.
Maybe it's just the kind of person I am (quite emotional and also critical of almost everything), but I seem to be constantly on the go with my mind trying to find answers.
My mother would constantly criticize me for this "personality flaw" of mine.

Anyways, I don't mean to say that the questions are "not much" in that sense. I actually probably should have worded it differently.
What I am saying is that there are almost an unimaginable amount of questions that are equally important, and just those five questions, in the grand spread of things, seems like "not much" you know?
But you can't always ask the fullness of all the questions you want answered to every person you want them to be answered by.
I'm honestly not even sure if I'll get the chance to ask any questions at all.
I've never been to a conference like this before.

Oh and btw, this conference is with WLC. I felt that I could go ahead and point that out now that I have your questions.
I wanted to make sure not to say that before I got your questions. Figured I'd get some questions I wouldn't want to ask him myself lol...

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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27-07-2012, 12:34 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 11:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are asking these questions of theists, correct? These are non-questions to an atheist.

Yea, I'm asking these questions to Theist Apologists.

The Apologists that will be there are -

Gary Habermas

Mike Licona

Guillermo Gonzalez

Paul Copan

Doug Geivett

And
William Lane Craig

It's the On Guard Conference in Broken Arrow, OK.
The first day starts tonight at about 6:30pm.
Then tomorrow is a long day.

Here's a link to the site if you want to check it out - http://onguardconference.org/

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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27-07-2012, 12:49 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 12:34 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(27-07-2012 11:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are asking these questions of theists, correct? These are non-questions to an atheist.

Yea, I'm asking these questions to Theist Apologists.

The Apologists that will be there are -

Gary Habermas

Mike Licona

Guillermo Gonzalez

Paul Copan

Doug Geivett

And
William Lane Craig

It's the On Guard Conference in Broken Arrow, OK.
The first day starts tonight at about 6:30pm.
Then tomorrow is a long day.

Here's a link to the site if you want to check it out - http://onguardconference.org/

The big question is why is there evil and so much suffering? Not just human, but all animals.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-07-2012, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2012 02:53 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 12:28 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(27-07-2012 12:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So I perceive a serious internal struggle going on here. We might seem to be rather callous and "un-feeling", as after a number of believers showing up here, basically as "trolls", it becomes difficult to discern the difference.

Please be sure and come back, as your "not much" may prove to be "a lot".
If you have not gotten what you want, exactly, could you explain what you would need, and what you "require".

Ultimately, (as WLC admits), faith is not about reason. It's a decision to abandon reason. There may be reasons for that position. ("Love"). However, that human emotion is "deconstructible", (while remaining ultimately valuable).

As far a serious internal struggle, you are correct.
Maybe it's just the kind of person I am (quite emotional and also critical of almost everything), but I seem to be constantly on the go with my mind trying to find answers.
My mother would constantly criticize me for this "personality flaw" of mine.

Anyways, I don't mean to say that the questions are "not much" in that sense. I actually probably should have worded it differently.
What I am saying is that there are almost an unimaginable amount of questions that are equally important, and just those five questions, in the grand spread of things, seems like "not much" you know?
But you can't always ask the fullness of all the questions you want answered to every person you want them to be answered by.
I'm honestly not even sure if I'll get the chance to ask any questions at all.
I've never been to a conference like this before.

Oh and btw, this conference is with WLC. I felt that I could go ahead and point that out now that I have your questions.
I wanted to make sure not to say that before I got your questions. Figured I'd get some questions I wouldn't want to ask him myself lol...

Interesting. The thing is, about WLC, you should not assume his good faith. I am not employed, in any way, to promote my views. He, on the other hand, is, and is occupationally obligated, to attempt to justify his faith system. Every piece of it is flawed, and refutable, very very easily. His script is old, and has been refuted by many. In the end, he admits, it's not about any argument, but what he has been "granted", (faith), by his "holy spirit". So ultimately, he agrees, he believes, because he believes. It's the ULTIMTE circular argument. His god, has capritiously, granted him the gift of faith. The rest are out in the cold. That means his god created some humans for hell. That is simply inconceivable.

In the debate with (Dr.) Bart Ehrman, he proved his bad faith, by posing the formula for the probability of the resurrection. Winning debates, is not necessarily the best way to determine truth. One can be a bad debater, and have the truth. He posed the formula, VERY quickly, and in fact the formula's solution is zero. He pretended it was 1.0. He did not honestly discuss it. He made a fundamental mathematical error. He "used" it as a "trick" to attempt to win the debate. DO NOT assume "good faith", in WLC. He is a Sophist. He has proven that. He is not about the search or truth. He "has" all the truth he wants, or needs.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-07-2012, 12:56 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 12:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  The big question is why is there evil and so much suffering? Not just human, but all animals.

I could add this to the list, but I think you're question is a bit vague.
Do you want to ask - If God is suppose to be good and loving and basically love human beings as much as the Bible describes, then why does He allow evil, and why does he allow this suffering if He is capable of stopping it.
Or why did He make the world like this in the first place if He could make any world He chooses. It seems cruel of Him to make things this way.

I dunno, is there a certain way you would want it asked?

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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27-07-2012, 12:58 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
Ask them to put themselves in the following situation.

They are powerful and wealthy. One day, one of their children does something that they were expressly forbidden from doing. Would they do the following:-

1) Kick their child out of the house
2) Make their child's life as miserable as their power allowed
3) When their child becomes a parent, do the exact same thing to their child
4) Invest all of their money into a trust-fund, dedicated to the continual hire of thugs who would repeatedly make life unpleasant for all of the generations that would follow

If they wouldn't, tell them that they are better parents than the creature they worship.
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27-07-2012, 01:01 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 12:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Interesting. The thing is, about WLC, you should not assume his good faith. I am not employed, in any way, to promote my views. He, on the other hand, is, and is occupationally obligated, to attempt to justify his faith system. Every piece of it is flawed, and refutable, very very easily. His script is old, and has been refuted by many. In the end, he admits, it's not about any argument, but what he has been "granted", (faith), by his "holy spirit". So ultimately, he agrees, he believes, because he believes. It's the ULTIMTE curcular argument. His god, has capritiously, granted him the gift of faith. The rest are out in the cold. That means his god created some humans for hell. That is simply inconceivable.

In the debate with (Dr.) Bart Ehrman, he proved his bad faith, by posing the formula for the probability of the resurrection. Winning debates, is not necessarily the best way to determine truth. One can be a bad debater, and have the truth. He posed the formula, VERY quickly, and in fact the formula's solution is zero. He pretended it was 1.0. He did not honestly discuss it. He made a fundamental mathematical error. He "used" it as a "trick" to attempt to win the debate. DO NOT assume "good faith", in WLC. He is a Sophist. He has proven that. He is not about the search or truth. He "has" all the truth he wants, or needs.

Hmm, that's pretty interesting. Well since I don't know a heap load about WLC for the most part (Not a big fan of his style), I'll keep what you're saying in mind.
I think the important part is that I state who exactly is giving me the answers to my questions. That way, research can be done on the individual and maybe the answers can be traced back to the individuals background/reputation.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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