Questions for Apologists?
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27-07-2012, 02:51 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
As Starcrash wisely points put, no matter what they say, you have to cook up (a), god. Inevitably they will say their's is Yahweh, (the god of the armies).

The justification for that (particular god), is always the resurrection. As St. Paul states, "if Jesus is not raised from the dead, our faith is in vain". The resurrection is a faith declaration, (and ultimately), a subjective experience, (see the incident on the road to Emmaus), and a neurological phenomenon. So, also in the end it's about the resurrection event, and what that means, and how it's interpreted, by a human brain.

(Hey Star, please recheck you "sympathy for eve" thread. I caved.) WeepingTongue

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-07-2012, 04:23 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 12:56 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(27-07-2012 12:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  The big question is why is there evil and so much suffering? Not just human, but all animals.

I could add this to the list, but I think you're question is a bit vague.
Do you want to ask - If God is suppose to be good and loving and basically love human beings as much as the Bible describes, then why does He allow evil, and why does he allow this suffering if He is capable of stopping it.
Or why did He make the world like this in the first place if He could make any world He chooses. It seems cruel of Him to make things this way.

I dunno, is there a certain way you would want it asked?

Good point. Why would we worship a God who allows so much evil and suffering?

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27-07-2012, 10:27 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
Alright, so I was only able to formally ask one question. There were two long lines of people waiting to ask questions, and so he only had enough time for one question per person.
The question I asked was - 1.) If God created Space and Time, then that means that God had to have been outside time and space before the creating of it.
But in order to think or act, time, in the sense that we understand it, is required.
So how is it possible for God to act or think outside time and space?
Also, if it is possible, then would God be considered Special Pleading?

To be honest, he really did not answer the question sufficiently. I really was disappointed.
But, I guess the good thing is that they'll be posting all of the conference and workshops (including me asking the question and his response) on their website later on

There may be another opportunity to ask more questions tomorrow since it's a much more lengthy day.
We'll see.

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27-07-2012, 10:36 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 10:27 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Alright, so I was only able to formally ask one question. There were two long lines of people waiting to ask questions, and so he only had enough time for one question per person.
The question I asked was - 1.) If God created Space and Time, then that means that God had to have been outside time and space before the creating of it.
But in order to think or act, time, in the sense that we understand it, is required.
So how is it possible for God to act or think outside time and space?
Also, if it is possible, then would God be considered Special Pleading?

To be honest, he really did not answer the question sufficiently. I really was disappointed.
But, I guess the good thing is that they'll be posting all of the conference and workshops (including me asking the question and his response) on their website later on

There may be another opportunity to ask more questions tomorrow since it's a much more lengthy day.
We'll see.

I did not want to make you think you were wasting your time, but I knew you would never be allowed to ask a series of questions. In these things, one question only is allowed, and usually they want to preview it.

The fact is YOU have a brilliant mind. Use it. You do not need these old farts to do your thinking for you. "The journey is the destination". You've already arrived. Tongue

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27-07-2012, 10:50 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2012 11:26 PM by Atothetheist.)
RE: Questions for Apologists?
I am never one to take anybodys word for it, I would just think hard, and research even harder, and come up with an answer that is suficiant.

If you are confident in the answer, then share it with us.

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28-07-2012, 12:16 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
Quote:While pretending to instruct and enlighten men, Religion in reality keeps them in ignorance, and stifles the desire of knowing the most interesting objects. The people have no other rule of conduct, than what their priests are pleased to prescribe. Religion supplies the place of every thing else: but being in itself essentially obscure, it is more proper to lead mortals astray than to guide them in the path of science and happiness. Religion renders enigmatical all Natural Philosophy, Morality, Legislation and Politics. A man blinded by religious prejudices, fears truth, whenever it clashes with his opinions: he cannot know his own nature he cannot cultivate his reason, he cannot perform experiments.

Everything concurs to render the people devout; but every thing tends to prevent them from being humane, reasonable and virtuous. Religion seems to have no other object, than to stupefy the mind.

Priests have been ever at war with genius and talent, because well-informed men perceive, that superstition shackles the human mind, and would keep it in eternal infancy, occupied solely by fables and frightened by phantoms. Incapable of improvement itself, Theology opposed insurmountable barriers to the progress of true knowledge; its sole object is to keep nations and their rulers in the most profound ignorance of their duties, and of the real motives, that should incline them to do good. It obscures Morality, renders its principles arbitrary, and subjects it to the caprice of the gods or of their ministers. It converts the art of governing men into a mysterious tyranny, which is the scourge of nations. It changes princes into unjust, licentious despots, and the people into ignorant slaves, who become corrupt in order to merit the favour of their masters.

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28-07-2012, 12:30 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(27-07-2012 10:27 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  To be honest, he really did not answer the question sufficiently.

Yes, well, these were apologists after all.
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28-07-2012, 12:58 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(28-07-2012 12:30 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(27-07-2012 10:27 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  To be honest, he really did not answer the question sufficiently.

Yes, well, these were apologists after all.

Well, there is too that it might be hard if an intelligent question is asked - especially one which is quite unique and hard to understand like this time one. I'd be more interested to see if having had time to think about it one of them could come back with an interesting answer... but that's more just from the point of view of extending the torture Big Grin I don't really expect any one of them to have much insight into something like that... it's not like they study properties of time etc, so any answer they came back with I suspect would be in terms of woo woo stuff like Old Testament Gods and sacrifices and so on...
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31-07-2012, 11:54 PM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(28-07-2012 12:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  Well, there is too that it might be hard if an intelligent question is asked - especially one which is quite unique and hard to understand like this time one. I'd be more interested to see if having had time to think about it one of them could come back with an interesting answer... but that's more just from the point of view of extending the torture Big Grin I don't really expect any one of them to have much insight into something like that... it's not like they study properties of time etc, so any answer they came back with I suspect would be in terms of woo woo stuff like Old Testament Gods and sacrifices and so on...
I'm pretty sure they (WLC) have heard the space-time argument before. WLC is apparently "known for his work in the philosophy of religion, philosophy of time, and the defense of Christian theism."
I have not read through all of the comments on this blog post but they are interesting: http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2008/0...usion.html
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01-08-2012, 09:51 AM
RE: Questions for Apologists?
(31-07-2012 11:54 PM)Noelani Wrote:  
(28-07-2012 12:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  Well, there is too that it might be hard if an intelligent question is asked - especially one which is quite unique and hard to understand like this time one. I'd be more interested to see if having had time to think about it one of them could come back with an interesting answer... but that's more just from the point of view of extending the torture Big Grin I don't really expect any one of them to have much insight into something like that... it's not like they study properties of time etc, so any answer they came back with I suspect would be in terms of woo woo stuff like Old Testament Gods and sacrifices and so on...
I'm pretty sure they (WLC) have heard the space-time argument before. WLC is apparently "known for his work in the philosophy of religion, philosophy of time, and the defense of Christian theism."
I have not read through all of the comments on this blog post but they are interesting: http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2008/0...usion.html

That was fun for a minute.

Bible talks about a god who creates then dictates as the effect of the first cause. Tao talks about the utility of empty space, and how the empty space that can be spoken of, is not the empty space. Consider

The writers of these works did not know, as we do, of the evolutionary imperative of simulation in consciousness; most importantly, the simulation of future.

Take, for example, 3.

My presentation of the concept of 3 does not cause your effect of considering 1 and 2, but rather correlates with your memory of arithmetic and sequence. Just as a big ol' tiger behind your back correlates with the instinctive memory of primate from which simulation of future selects for or against your school of philosophy.

In other words, no. Changing the labeling of temporal to causal does not depreciate the activation of sequence.

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