Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
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08-07-2013, 03:43 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 03:44 AM by Filox.)
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
(08-07-2013 10:31 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 08:22 AM)childeye Wrote:  We all are limited in our abilities to both understand and express ourselves accurately. Not because we are incapable mentally, but because human language is imprecise. That is why scripture interpretation is a tricky subject...

This may be true, but it *shouldn't* be true. Do you think, if you asked God what a certain passage of the bible meant, that it wouldn't or couldn't be explained to your satisfaction?
I would conclude God could explain everything including mistranslation, misapplication, misconstruing, misunderstanding. Nonetheless, God either does not always do so, or we do not always listen correctly.
Quote: Why should someone who regularly communicates with God have trouble deciphering what God wants him to know?
The issue is always trust or faith. There indeed appear to be things God would not want us to know until He wants us to, if ever.

Quote:Your argument is weak and unsatisfying, because it could be made for any scripture that appears contradictory and for any religion that simply assumes its holy book is true regardless of what it *appears* to say that is untrue or contradictory.
I agree in part, since one should not assume something is true because they read it somewhere. However, I was not arguing in my view. To me, I was simply stating a fact that words are not precise and easily misconstrued. Moreover, it would be obtuse and disingenuous to deny the occurrence of such semantics, simply to maintain there is a contradiction for the purpose of supporting the conclusion something is untrue.

Quote: If you start with the premise that the bible must be true, you're obviously going to conclude that the bible must be true, but that's the logical fallacy of Begging the Question.
True. Also, it would take a dishonest person to conclude something is true or untrue when they don't even understand it.

Quote:To the OP, the scripture references should have been cited, such as apologist Matt Slick did in his response to this question. His response is also unsatisfactory, arguing that Jesus was both man and god and so he could hold the contradictory aspects of both positions and they wouldn't be considered contradictions... a bit of "having his cake and eating it, too". But at least he cited every fact that he asked his readers to consider.
This subject is made irrelevant by the knowledge of God. I don't have to read it to know God does not tempt any man, nor is He tempted. It is a logical conclusion that God knows the ignorant will both reason and act out of that ignorance.
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08-07-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
(08-07-2013 10:31 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  This may be true, but it *shouldn't* be true. Do you think, if you asked God what a certain passage of the bible meant, that it wouldn't or couldn't be explained to your satisfaction?
I would conclude God could explain everything including mistranslation, misapplication, misconstruing, misunderstanding. Nonetheless, God either does not always do so, or we do not always listen correctly.
Quote: Why should someone who regularly communicates with God have trouble deciphering what God wants him to know?
The issue is always trust or faith. There indeed appear to be things God would not want us to know until He wants us to, if ever.

Quote:Your argument is weak and unsatisfying, because it could be made for any scripture that appears contradictory and for any religion that simply assumes its holy book is true regardless of what it *appears* to say that is untrue or contradictory.
I agree in part, since one should not assume something is true because they read it somewhere. However, I was not arguing in my view. To me, I was simply stating a fact that words are not precise and easily misconstrued. Moreover, it would be obtuse and disingenuous to deny the occurrence of such semantics, simply to maintain there is a contradiction for the purpose of supporting the conclusion something is untrue.

Quote: If you start with the premise that the bible must be true, you're obviously going to conclude that the bible must be true, but that's the logical fallacy of Begging the Question.
True. Also, it would take a dishonest person to conclude something is true or untrue when they don't even understand it.

Quote:To the OP, the scripture references should have been cited, such as apologist Matt Slick did in his response to this question. His response is also unsatisfactory, arguing that Jesus was both man and god and so he could hold the contradictory aspects of both positions and they wouldn't be considered contradictions... a bit of "having his cake and eating it, too". But at least he cited every fact that he asked his readers to consider.
This subject is made irrelevant by the knowledge of God. I don't have to read it to know God does not tempt any man, nor is He tempted. It is a logical conclusion that God knows the ignorant will both reason and act out of that ignorance.
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08-07-2013, 04:22 PM
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
(08-07-2013 03:48 PM)childeye Wrote:  I would conclude God could explain everything including mistranslation, misapplication, misconstruing, misunderstanding. Nonetheless, God either does not always do so, or we do not always listen correctly.
Yeah, that book that is supposed to help save us all from eternal and infinite pain and torment... well God doesn't think it's important enough to make certain we understand it. After all, it's not his soul that will be roasting for eternity. What a god...

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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08-07-2013, 04:38 PM
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
(08-07-2013 04:22 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 03:48 PM)childeye Wrote:  I would conclude God could explain everything including mistranslation, misapplication, misconstruing, misunderstanding. Nonetheless, God either does not always do so, or we do not always listen correctly.
Yeah, that book that is supposed to help save us all from eternal and infinite pain and torment... well God doesn't think it's important enough to make certain we understand it. After all, it's not his soul that will be roasting for eternity. What a god...
I would disagree. Your conclusion is based upon a false premise. One does not need to understand scripture to believe in God nor be ruled by His Spirit which is Love, as in empathy. In essence, the book itself claims it cannot save anyone when Jesus says, go look in your precious scriptures wherein you think you have eternal Life. Also, the letter kills but the Spirit gives Life.
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08-07-2013, 04:57 PM
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
(08-07-2013 04:38 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 04:22 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Yeah, that book that is supposed to help save us all from eternal and infinite pain and torment... well God doesn't think it's important enough to make certain we understand it. After all, it's not his soul that will be roasting for eternity. What a god...
I would disagree. Your conclusion is based upon a false premise. One does not need to understand scripture to believe in God nor be ruled by His Spirit which is Love, as in empathy. In essence, the book itself claims it cannot save anyone when Jesus says, go look in your precious scriptures wherein you think you have eternal Life. Also, the letter kills but the Spirit gives Life.

what love??? look around to natural life, any living is moved for the opportunity to attack another and take his life
all is clearly evil cant b more clear then this and u call it love and beauty rising sun

while all is really happening and not only livings are screaming of pains but also things n nothing, but to u it is waoo wat a spirit n lessons to share of such powerful eagles eyes ..

yes words reveal the worse being the fact, but that means spirit being the source not smthg better

what could reveal evil is surely not evil but what can b positive and powerful despite evil is certainly evil source
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08-07-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
(08-07-2013 04:57 PM)absols Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 04:38 PM)childeye Wrote:  I would disagree. Your conclusion is based upon a false premise. One does not need to understand scripture to believe in God nor be ruled by His Spirit which is Love, as in empathy. In essence, the book itself claims it cannot save anyone when Jesus says, go look in your precious scriptures wherein you think you have eternal Life. Also, the letter kills but the Spirit gives Life.

what love??? look around to natural life, any living is moved for the opportunity to attack another and take his life
all is clearly evil cant b more clear then this and u call it love and beauty rising sun

while all is really happening and not only livings are screaming of pains but also things n nothing, but to u it is waoo wat a spirit n lessons to share of such powerful eagles eyes ..

yes words reveal the worse being the fact, but that means spirit being the source not smthg better

what could reveal evil is surely not evil but what can b positive and powerful despite evil is certainly evil source
It is therefore evident that in this time and space is where we learn what is good by losing it. I surmise it would count as less than nothing if such experience and knowledge gained was never put to use.
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08-07-2013, 11:06 PM
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
(08-07-2013 09:16 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 04:57 PM)absols Wrote:  what love??? look around to natural life, any living is moved for the opportunity to attack another and take his life
all is clearly evil cant b more clear then this and u call it love and beauty rising sun

while all is really happening and not only livings are screaming of pains but also things n nothing, but to u it is waoo wat a spirit n lessons to share of such powerful eagles eyes ..

yes words reveal the worse being the fact, but that means spirit being the source not smthg better

what could reveal evil is surely not evil but what can b positive and powerful despite evil is certainly evil source
It is therefore evident that in this time and space is where we learn what is good by losing it. I surmise it would count as less than nothing if such experience and knowledge gained was never put to use.

u r meaning to justify the worse for good, and that spirit is evil

which confirm wat i said not u

n no, wat is true so good is oneself which we never lose as long as we are there, but selves abuses and rights violations kill the good we are forever
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09-07-2013, 07:57 AM
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
So, to get back to my original direction, . . . . Jesus, if he was god, couldn't have been "tempted as we are". To "fall to a sin" would be something so foreign to this being [if 'he' is as mainstream christianity claim 'him' to be] that it would not be at all understood. It would be like a guy trying to understand what it is like to have a baby inside. This "god" would have no TRUE understanding of "why living humans do what they do", . . . so any "judgement" would be completely out of a NECESSARY frame of reference. "Walking around in a meat suit" doesn't cut it, either.
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09-07-2013, 08:30 AM
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
(08-07-2013 04:38 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 04:22 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Yeah, that book that is supposed to help save us all from eternal and infinite pain and torment... well God doesn't think it's important enough to make certain we understand it. After all, it's not his soul that will be roasting for eternity. What a god...
I would disagree. Your conclusion is based upon a false premise. One does not need to understand scripture to believe in God nor be ruled by His Spirit which is Love, as in empathy. In essence, the book itself claims it cannot save anyone when Jesus says, go look in your precious scriptures wherein you think you have eternal Life. Also, the letter kills but the Spirit gives Life.
Obviously the book can't save anyone even from the perspective of the faithful. One has to act upon its teachings and only that will save you. The book can only "help save" which is what I said, not "save", because it provides the teachings supposedly. But, of course, on the other side of the same faiths, God has a plan and it is all predetermined so what a person does or doesn't do based upon the book really doesn't matter. But I digress...

So what do you think the purpose of the Bible is if not to help save us?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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09-07-2013, 08:33 AM
RE: Questions for Theists: God and Temptation
Deavon Reye:

Some Christians, a distinct minority, answer your temptation question by positing that Jesus is not God and never was. This was the case in both my cults. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that he was originally an angel (Michael, actually) who abandoned that position and became fully human to accomplish the plan of redemption. God cannot be tempted. But Jesus could, because he's not God. Problem solved.

My other cult taught that Jesus had no pre-existence and sought to explain away verses that implied otherwise.

I later concluded that the writers of the Bible were unclear about whether Jesus was God because they never met him because he didn't exist, so they weren't all in agreement about what bullshit story they were making up.
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