Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
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10-08-2015, 02:29 PM
Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
The reason I'm starting this thread is because I think Tomasia and drewpaul might actually be atheists and not know it.

They both seem somewhat thoughtful, and they both seem genuinely interested in how the universe works. Obviously they want to present their theories as we all do, but it seems to me they often don't argue for the existence of god, but rather only that it seems to them that based on the evidence they have seen, it seems more likely that our universe has a god, rather than not. They make it sound as if rather than being certain of god's existence, they simply find it to be the more plausible of the 2 choices. The 2 choices being that either god exists or he doesn't. I also am agnostic about the existence of god, but if I had to guess, I would guess that there is no god. The point is that if Tomasia and drewpaul don't consider themselves to be 100% certain of god's existence, and only lean heavily towards there being a god, then they are actually admitting that they are agnostic about the existence of god, which makes them atheists.

The questions I would like to ask are:

1. Does god exist?

I see this question as having 3 possible responses, "yes", "no", or "I don't know(I'm not certain)". For me the answer is a big "don't know." An answer of "no" or "I don't know" would both indicate atheism, while the answer of "I don't know," will indicate specifically agnosticism (a type of atheism).

2. Do you believe that god does exist?

This one only has 2 possible answers, "yes" or "no." Everyone should be able to tell whether or not they believe that god exists.

Please keep in mind, I'm not asking if god existing seems like the most plausible choice, I'm asking if you're certain.
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10-08-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(10-08-2015 02:29 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  The reason I'm starting this thread is because I think Tomasia and drewpaul might actually be atheists and not know it.

They both seem somewhat thoughtful, and they both seem genuinely interested in how the universe works. Obviously they want to present their theories as we all do, but it seems to me they often don't argue for the existence of god,
My assessment is that it is almost a suicidal move for a theist to come to this forum and proclaim their religious beliefs and stances on things.
If a theist proclaims that they are pro-life then they will get insulted. If they proclaim that they believe that marriage ought to be one man, one woman then they will get insulted. If they claim to have knowledge that god exists then they will get insulted.

A theist that wants to have civil conversation on this forum will choose not to "debate" their own beliefs but may choose to challenge certain atheistic positions e.g. morality, free will etc.
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10-08-2015, 03:14 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
RuPaul is on this forum? Thumbsup Wow!





Wait.....


I read that wrong.......


nevermind.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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10-08-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(10-08-2015 02:29 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  ... Do you believe that god does exist? This one only has 2 possible answers, "yes" or "no." Everyone should be able to tell whether or not they believe that god exists.

I don't think every question has a belief associated with it. For example, you might ask me if I believe Mercury's core contains more iridium than all the iridium on Earth, to which I could only answer I don't know, and have no belief about it either way. I neither believe it true nor untrue.

The identical indifference can apply to a god, especially a god that no one has taken the trouble to define in any coherent way. I can through presentation of evidence be brought to having belief about Mercury's core iridium content only because such a thing can be coherently defined. It is impossible in my case to bring me to a belief one way or the other about a god without any definition of it.

Where godly characteristics ARE defined (operates outside nature, cares about human orifice traffic, fabricates galactic components consciously, etc.) I weigh evidence for them and arrive at disbelief every time. But that's a disbelief limited to agents that would possess those characteristics. Agents that remain undefined I have no belief about either way.
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10-08-2015, 04:20 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(10-08-2015 03:23 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 02:29 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  ... Do you believe that god does exist? This one only has 2 possible answers, "yes" or "no." Everyone should be able to tell whether or not they believe that god exists.

I don't think every question has a belief associated with it. For example, you might ask me if I believe Mercury's core contains more iridium than all the iridium on Earth, to which I could only answer I don't know, and have no belief about it either way. I neither believe it true nor untrue.
I think you have misread Matt's question.

It was a question of "Do you believe that god does exist?"
If you answer "No" that could mean that you either "believe that god doesn't exist" OR "lack a belief in god/s"

The answer "No" does not mean that you hold a belief.
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10-08-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(10-08-2015 02:29 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  The point is that if Tomasia and drewpaul don't consider themselves to be 100% certain of god's existence, and only lean heavily towards there being a god, then they are actually admitting that they are agnostic about the existence of god, which makes them atheists.

You don't think there can be agnostic theists who do believe that god exists but don't claim to know?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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10-08-2015, 04:37 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(10-08-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 02:29 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  The point is that if Tomasia and drewpaul don't consider themselves to be 100% certain of god's existence, and only lean heavily towards there being a god, then they are actually admitting that they are agnostic about the existence of god, which makes them atheists.

You don't think there can be agnostic theists who do believe that god exists but don't claim to know?

Fence sitting is not a place for theists. If they claim to believe in God, especially a specific god like this prick Yahweh, "I don't know" gets you cast to the fiery pits of Hades for all eternity.

A belief in God leaves no room for wavering faith or questionable belief. It wasn't built that way.
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10-08-2015, 04:55 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(10-08-2015 04:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ... It was a question of "Do you believe that god does exist?" If you answer "No" that could mean that you either "believe that god doesn't exist" OR "lack a belief in god/s". The answer "No" does not mean that you hold a belief.

That'd be an unconventional use of language. If you asked me if I believed Mercury's core had more iridium than Earth I would not answer "No", I would answer "Beats me". If pressed for my belief on the matter I'd say "I haven't any".

The first question renders the second question superfluous anyway. Answering the first question either with a flat yes or no requires a belief; a don't know answer reflects no belief because if a belief were held the answer would be either yes or no.
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10-08-2015, 05:03 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(10-08-2015 04:37 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You don't think there can be agnostic theists who do believe that god exists but don't claim to know?

Fence sitting is not a place for theists. If they claim to believe in God, especially a specific god like this prick Yahweh, "I don't know" gets you cast to the fiery pits of Hades for all eternity.

A belief in God leaves no room for wavering faith or questionable belief. It wasn't built that way.

I agree it is not likely to be found among the True Christians™, but I have met some people that are more deistic and believe in "something out there" that they call god but who admit that it is just a feeling they have. I see them falling into the agnostic theist bucket.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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10-08-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(10-08-2015 04:55 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 04:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ... It was a question of "Do you believe that god does exist?" If you answer "No" that could mean that you either "believe that god doesn't exist" OR "lack a belief in god/s". The answer "No" does not mean that you hold a belief.

That'd be an unconventional use of language. If you asked me if I believed Mercury's core had more iridium than Earth I would not answer "No", I would answer "Beats me". If pressed for my belief on the matter I'd say "I haven't any".

The first question renders the second question superfluous anyway. Answering the first question either with a flat yes or no requires a belief; a don't know answer reflects no belief because if a belief were held the answer would be either yes or no.

In your case the answer to "do you believe that Mercury's core has more iridium than Earth" can logically be No because you do not hold that belief. You can also answer No to the question "do you believe Mercury's core does not have more iridium than Earth" because you do not hold that belief either. Answering Yes to either question requires a belief; answering No to both requires that you do not hold a belief. Answering "I don't know" is attempting to answer both questions at the same time which ends up being the same as matching No responses.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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