Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
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13-08-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 10:08 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  You're making it sound like you think that it is reasonable to believe something without proof.

Belief without proof = faith

When did faith become reasonable?

Belief without evidence is faith.

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13-08-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 10:02 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 07:32 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  You made a fault in your logic. You equivocated knowledge and belief. If we use the sense that justification equals proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Then follow this syllogism:
All B is A.
Some A is C
All C is B
Therefore some A is B
Or all knowledge is belief
Some beliefs are Justified
All justified beliefs are knowledge
Therefore Some beliefs are Justified.
Rules of logic dictate that we cannot convert all B is A to All A is B. Only some A is B.
If you think you can make all your beliefs justified then you either have very little beliefs or your burden of proof is laughably small.
Non justified beliefs are not unreasonably. They just have not met the burden of proof. As many atheists would say lack of evidence of God is evidence of lack. This is a small piece of evidence and would not meet the burden of proof to know that God does not exist, however it would be reasonable to belief that God does not exist because of lesser evidence.

Ok, let's try this. "I believe that I don't have knowledge that god doesn't exist because it is not justified to know that god doesn't exist. I believe that it is reasonable to believe that god does not exist, but I believe god does not exist."

Does this sound any less absurd?

Knowledge is either justified or not justified, belief is either reasonable or unreasonable.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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13-08-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
Nothing to see here
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13-08-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 10:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 10:08 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  You're making it sound like you think that it is reasonable to believe something without proof.

Belief without proof = faith

When did faith become reasonable?

Belief without evidence is faith.

"Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing or a belief not based on proof."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith
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13-08-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 10:15 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 06:53 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If I reserved the use of belief only for things I am very highly sure of then I wouldn't need the word. I could just divide the world into things I know and things I don't.

Exactly, I have no use for the word. If I don't know it, it's a hypothesis.

Then I predict you are going to have a very hard time understanding anybody else or making yourself understood. I find belief to be a useful term.

Saying I believe something to be true does not mean that I am not cognizant of the fact that I could be wrong, only that I think the evidence for the belief is substantial enough to trust it. It is a working hypothesis and the strength of my belief is based on the confidence I have in the evidence supporting it. Saying "I believe X" is a lot simpler than saying "I have weighed the evidence for working hypothesis X against that for alternative possibilities and I find that X is most likely to be true so I will use that as the basis for decisions unless and until I encounter new evidence that changes my evaluation of the likelihood of X".

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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13-08-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 10:18 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 07:32 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  If you think you can make all your beliefs justified then you either have very little beliefs

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. I don't want to believe things that I don't know to be true.

And there's a method for going about it.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_skepticism

Extreme skepticism is almost impossible. From what I am observing, all you have done is take what we mean by belief and erroneously call it a hypothesis.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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13-08-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 10:22 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 10:02 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Ok, let's try this. "I believe that I don't have knowledge that god doesn't exist because it is not justified to know that god doesn't exist. I believe that it is reasonable to believe that god does not exist, but I believe god does not exist."

Does this sound any less absurd?

Knowledge is either justified or not justified, belief is either reasonable or unreasonable.

No. There is no such thing as knowledge that is not justified. All that we have are beliefs. If a belief is justified and true, then we (excluding girlyman and a few others) call it knowledge.
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13-08-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 10:31 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 10:18 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Ding ding ding! We have a winner. I don't want to believe things that I don't know to be true.

And there's a method for going about it.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_skepticism

Extreme skepticism is almost impossible. From what I am observing, all you have done is take what we mean by belief and erroneously call it a hypotheses.

I think you are taking what is actually a hypothesis and labeling it a belief.
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13-08-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 10:29 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 10:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Belief without evidence is faith.

"Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing or a belief not based on proof."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

That's a piss poor definition. Faith is belief without evidence or in the face of contradicting evidence. They are using proof as a synonym for evidence and that's just wrong.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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13-08-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 10:33 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 10:31 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Extreme skepticism is almost impossible. From what I am observing, all you have done is take what we mean by belief and erroneously call it a hypotheses.

I think you are taking what is actually a hypothesis and labeling it a belief.

A hypothesis is a statement which can be tested. What happens of you hold something to be true that cannot be tested.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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