Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
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13-08-2015, 01:01 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 11:04 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing or a belief not based on evidence.
One extra thing to add. "faith" is always used in an optimistic context, never pessimistic, It is akin to wishful thinking
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13-08-2015, 01:03 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
So, this topic is basically 4 pages of everyone telling Matt how he's wrong and him going "la la la I don't hear you" while repeating his original post.

Right?

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13-08-2015, 01:08 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 01:03 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, this topic is basically 4 pages of everyone telling Matt how he's wrong and him going "la la la I don't hear you" while repeating his original post.

Right?

Well, it's considerably more than 4 pages, but otherwise, yeah...

He's got his own definition of "belief" that nobody else seems to agree with.
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13-08-2015, 01:19 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 01:08 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 01:03 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, this topic is basically 4 pages of everyone telling Matt how he's wrong and him going "la la la I don't hear you" while repeating his original post.

Right?

Well, it's considerably more than 4 pages, but otherwise, yeah...

He's got his own definition of "belief" that nobody else seems to agree with.

Only if you're a noob still viewing the site at the default setting of 10 posts per page.

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13-08-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 12:45 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Belief with only suggestive (not conclusive) evidence is still faith. If one only has suggestive evidence, and one has an interest in gathering knowledge via scientific method, then one should form a hypothesis, not a belief. Jumping to a conclusion with inconclusive evidence is bad science.

We are obviously never going to agree on this subject. A belief based on evidence is not faith. I agree that a belief based only on "suggestive" evidence would be foolish but that isn't what I am talking about. I do not form a belief until I find that the evidence has mounted to a level that I think the conclusion is justified. That belief strengthens as additional evidence is accumulated and can be eliminated if new evidence demonstrates that it is wrong. I would not call it knowledge until the evidence is so overwhelming that there is just no room at all for doubt.
Hypothesis --> working hypothesis --> belief --> strong belief --> knowledge

You apparently aren't willing to call it a belief until it gets to the knowledge stage and I find that very strange and not at all how anybody else uses the term.

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13-08-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 12:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yes, that is what I'm saying. I know that 2+2=4 in base 10, 2+2=10 in base 4, and 2+2=11 in base 3. These are all facts which follow from one definition of addition (there are others) in different radixes. A statement either follows from the axioms and operators or it doesn't. There is nothing to believe. Not even in the axioms or operators. They are stipulated. The Pythagorean Theorem is another example. I don't believe it, I know it follows in Euclidean geometry. I also know it does not follow in spherical geometry. What's to believe?

OK, I see what you are saying. I will have to think about that a bit. I had not considered the case of knowing something with complete certainty because it is simply defined to be that way. That does appear to be qualitatively different than other knowledge claims. Going down that road, it seems to imply that using "know" for anything outside of formally defined systems is not actually valid. Hmmm
Consider

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13-08-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 01:08 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Well, it's considerably more than 4 pages, but otherwise, yeah...

He's got his own definition of "belief" that nobody else seems to agree with.

Matt's entitled to his own definition even if nobody agrees with it.

My assumption is that if we ask any random group of people, what does it mean to believe, you'd get a variety of different answers.
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13-08-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
I just want all of my beliefs to be true. Is this really that unique?

[Image: Belief_Venn_diagram.svg]

"A Venn/Euler diagram which grants that truth and belief may be distinguished and that their intersection is knowledge. Unsurprisingly, this is not an uncontroversial analysis."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief
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13-08-2015, 03:00 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 02:53 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I just want all of my beliefs to be true. Is this really that unique?

[Image: Belief_Venn_diagram.svg]

"A Venn/Euler diagram which grants that truth and belief may be distinguished and that their intersection is knowledge. Unsurprisingly, this is not an uncontroversial analysis."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

Nothing wrong with your diagram. But you have been implying all through this thread that all those beliefs in the blue section are irrational and illogical, and so are the people who hold them -- that any belief that does not coincide with absolute knowledge is somehow "bad". And that's just not how anyone else defines "belief".
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13-08-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(13-08-2015 01:19 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 01:08 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Well, it's considerably more than 4 pages, but otherwise, yeah...

He's got his own definition of "belief" that nobody else seems to agree with.

Only if you're a noob still viewing the site at the default setting of 10 posts per page.

Actually us what's moved beyond B-class n00b (those what views it at 50 posts per page) are back down to 10 'cos the pages load faster Tongue

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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