Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
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11-08-2015, 06:38 AM (This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 06:42 AM by Matt Finney.)
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(11-08-2015 06:11 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 04:57 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Answering "no" to the first question is not a position of agnosticism. A "no" in the first question requires a belief that god does not exist, and is therefore incompatible with agnosticism.

In understand your position but do not agree. Not believing a claim is not the same as believing the opposite claim. Answering No to the first question does not require any beliefs at all. The question only addresses a single belief and whether or not it is held. The simplest answer is No and any elaboration beyond that is addressing additional possible beliefs.

I still disagree.

Let's swap out god's existence for the guilt value of OJ Simpson.

Did OJ Simpson commit the crime of murder?

Just like the god question, there are 3 possible answers, yes, no, or I don't know. If the answer given is no, then that person is claiming that OJ did not commit the crime, and that's totally different than an "I don't know" response, which is not claiming anything at all about whether or not OJ committed the crime.
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11-08-2015, 06:40 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
Agnostic theism = I don't know if god exists, but god exists. That's silliness.
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11-08-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(11-08-2015 06:38 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 06:11 AM)unfogged Wrote:  In understand your position but do not agree. Not believing a claim is not the same as believing the opposite claim. Answering No to the first question does not require any beliefs at all. The question only addresses a single belief and whether or not it is held. The simplest answer is No and any elaboration beyond that is addressing additional possible beliefs.

I still disagree.

Let's swap out god's existence for the guilt value of OJ Simpson.

Did OJ Simpson commit the crime of murder?

Just like the god question, there are 3 possible answers, yes, no, or I don't know. If the answer given is no, then that person is claiming that OJ did not commit the crime, and that's totally different than an "I don't know" response, which is not claiming anything at all about whether or not OJ committed the crime.

But the question posed in the trial is "is he guilty" and the only answers allowed are yes and no. "No" can mean that you think he is innocent or that you don't know because the burden of proof has not been met.

Is god guilty of existing? No (he doesn't exist), No (we can't prove it), Yes

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11-08-2015, 06:49 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(11-08-2015 06:40 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Agnostic theism = I don't know if god exists, but god exists. That's silliness.

But you've changed the claim of belief to a claim of knowledge...

Agnostic theism = I don't know if god exists, but I believe god exists
Agnostic atheism = I don't know if god exists, but I don't believe god exists.
Gnostic theism = god exists
Gnostic atheism = no god exists

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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11-08-2015, 06:58 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
Agnostic theism: I don't know for sure that god exists, but I choose faith over atheism.

There are people who choose to believe, even though there is no evidence of truth in their belief and they are aware of it.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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11-08-2015, 07:02 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(11-08-2015 06:49 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 06:40 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Agnostic theism = I don't know if god exists, but god exists. That's silliness.

But you've changed the claim of belief to a claim of knowledge...

Agnostic theism = I don't know if god exists, but I believe god exists
Agnostic atheism = I don't know if god exists, but I don't believe god exists.
Gnostic theism = god exists
Gnostic atheism = no god exists

Why would someone claim to have a belief that is not knowledge? If they do so, are they recognizing that they hold unjustified beliefs?

Claiming that a belief in god is unjustified is the only thing that most atheists have tried to do in the god debate.

Agnostic theism seems a very silly position and would require a fair amount of mental gymnastics to make it work. It's a position that should be very easily defeated for anyone with the even slightest understanding of logic.
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11-08-2015, 07:10 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(11-08-2015 07:02 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Why would someone claim to have a belief that is not knowledge?

I wish I knew. If we could figure that out religion would die tomorrow.

Quote:If they do so, are they recognizing that they hold unjustified beliefs?

Cognitive dissonance can be a powerful thing.

Quote:Claiming that a belief in god is unjustified is the only thing that most atheists have tried to do in the god debate.

Agreed, and that is the appropriate strategy in my opinion. The trick is to get then to look at their belief critically and not just partition it off in their mind as an untouchable.

Quote:Agnostic theism seems a very silly position and would require a fair amount of mental gymnastics to make it work. It's a position that should be very easily defeated for anyone with the even slightest understanding of logic.

I don't disagree at all. Again, the problem is that too many people just accept that god exists and never apply logic to that particular question.

I'm not at all claiming that agnostic theism is a reasonable position. I'm just saying that it is out there. Faith, as used by theists, is not rational. Whenever you hear somebody say "you just have to have faith" you are probably bumping up against an agnostic theist.

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11-08-2015, 07:28 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(11-08-2015 07:02 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Why would someone claim to have a belief that is not knowledge? If they do so, are they recognizing that they hold unjustified beliefs?

Because knowledge and belief are two different and distinct things. You are equating them. They are not the same thing. It is entirely possible to believe something without knowing it.
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11-08-2015, 07:53 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(11-08-2015 06:40 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Agnostic theism = I don't know if god exists, but god exists. That's silliness.

That's because you are conflating belief and knowledge. They are not the same. Drinking Beverage

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11-08-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: Questions for Tomasia and drewpaul
(10-08-2015 02:29 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  The reason I'm starting this thread is because I think Tomasia and drewpaul might actually be atheists and not know it.

Lol, well I don’t know much about drewpaul, but I think he’s some generic deist. But I’m a fairly traditional and some what conservative Christian, but more along the lines of mainline protestantism, Catholicism, eastern orthodox beliefs, than fundie evangelical.

Quote:seems to me they often don't argue for the existence of god

You’re right I don’t argue for the existence of God, or even the validity of Christianity. I often remind people that I prefer to be treated as an individual who participates here, but who just so happens to be a theist, rather than some theist looking to win converts. I’m more curious about the intersections, and less about trying to get people to cross them.

I think the typical atheists and theists, tends to have a great deal of baggage between them, often antagonistic, less forthcoming than desired, more protective than need be. This seems particularly true when they’re strangers, on the internet of all places, where as a different sort of conversation might ensue if we were friends with a close and relationship.

Lately, as far as this forum is concerned, I’ve been more interested in questions like why the appeal of defining one’s views as “a lack of belief”, why the rejection of moral nihilism, though I think it’s unavoidable, why the lack of appeal to physicialism, etc… And a sort of curiosity regarding a certain disconnect between popular atheists perspective, and the regular joe atheists. These are the questions for the moment for me.

And I admit, for the most part my religious beliefs are a no show here, so I can understand why me and Drew might be conflated as one and the same in terms of what we believe.

Quote:1. Does god exist?

I see this question as having 3 possible responses, "yes", "no", or "I don't know(I'm not certain)". For me the answer is a big "don't know." An answer of "no" or "I don't know" would both indicate atheism, while the answer of "I don't know," will indicate specifically agnosticism (a type of atheism).

2. Do you believe that god does exist?

This one only has 2 possible answers, "yes" or "no." Everyone should be able to tell whether or not they believe that god exists.

Please keep in mind, I'm not asking if god existing seems like the most plausible choice, I'm asking if you're certain.

I’m not too sure what distinction is being drawn between question 1 and 2? I prefer to say that I strongly believe God exist, as confidently as believing my car is in the parking lot, that my parents are my biological ones, and that I’m sitting in my apt typing a response to you.

I tend to interpret your question 1, to imply a sort of dogmatic, impenetrable view, that leaves no room for even the possibility of being wrong. Where 2, leaves the possibility open, like the possibility that parents might not be my biological ones. Perhaps I was switched at birth, or adopted, and they didn’t tell me.
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