Questions for capitalists.
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02-11-2013, 07:26 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(02-11-2013 06:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  So we agree that corporations and unions shouldn't have super human powers. What happens if unions (communism) or corporations (capitalism) has too much power and become corrupt. We should be able to vote these people out of leadership positions since they have a lot if influence over society correct?

Example: the decisions made by corporate execs in the 90s led to the crashing (still getting worse) economy. They have affected millions of lives yet are not held accountable by those people they affect. They are what you describe superhuman in their ability to affect so many people. If we are not able to vote people in or out of power that have a lot if power over the economy then that is a dictatorship.

You're factually wrong. The corporate executives who defrauded people in the 90's and fucked up the economy WERE held accountable. For example, Ken Lay, CEO of Enron, is serving 30 years in prison. When you say they weren't held accountable, you must be referring to people who were associated with the government. For example, in 1997 Alan Greenspan of the Fed got the Bureau of Labor Statistics to falsify the CPI (rate of inflation) for the express purpose of defrauding senior citizens of their social security benefits, which are tied to the CPI. And it wasn't secret. He even explained to Congress how this would reduce the amount of money the government gave to senior citizens who had paid into the system their whole lives, and are now forced to live on next to nothing. Or look at the way Greenspan inflated the stock market, only to have it crash and ruin lives. Greenspan defrauded a lot more people than Ken Lay, and caused orders of magnitude more destruction than any corporate CEO. Yet Ken Lay got 30 years. Greenspan got a golden parachute and a retirement package.

As far as your plan to have executives be voted in, sure, I'm all for it... So long as you can accomplish it without resorting to threats of violence to coerce people into doing things against their will. As a libertarian, that's my one and only condition.

Do you have any ideas for how to accomplish that does not doesn't involve pointing a gun at people's heads? If so, I'm all for it.

Here's one idea: Convince people to only do business with corporations that giving voting rights to all their customers, like coops. Then, if the corporations screw them, they CAN vote out the officers.
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02-11-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
I and I,

P.S. If you think I'm exaggerating about the CPI, the man who reformulated the index is Michael Boskin, who in a Wall Street Journal op-ed admitted the government was cooking the books on inflation, and wrote: "If a CEO issued the kind of distorted figures put out by politicians... he'd wind up in prison." Because even the man pulling the strings knows corporations are WAY more accountable than government.

Also Greg Mankiw, chairman of the President's Council of Economic Advisers wrote:

“The debate about the CPI was really a political debate about how, and by how much, to cut real entitlements.”

So what I said in my last post, while it will seem outrageous to some on the forum, isn't even controversial.
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02-11-2013, 08:17 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(02-11-2013 06:12 PM)I and I Wrote:  Why should patents exist in the first place? I would like to hear a compelling argument for the reason patents should exist.

Should patents exist for any and everything? What about vaccines, medical equipment, and medicine that can save many lives, why should these be patented at all. Who cares if people copy and use medical inventions to save more lives.

The idea behind patents is that it allows the inventor to profit off his/her invention.
ie: if you were the first to invent the light bulb a patent would give you the right to exclusive sales of that product for XX amount of years.
This is to encourage people to innovate and invent new things.

ie: You could invent the light bulb but be some poor man in his parents garage. Without a patent there's no incentive for someone in a better position to manufacture and distribute to give you any money because they can just flat out copy your idea.

It was a good system in the 1800's, but it's being abused today and needs serious reform.

And no I don't believe patents should be allowed for medicine. I think America is weird and stupid for having this "big pharmacy" market that it does.
IMO, it's an area that should be paid for by the government. I think private companies should do the research and development of new medicine and the government should pay them for it and than that medicine should be distributed to the populace for free.
Depending on the medicine however. Somethings I think the government shouldn't pay for. I'm mostly talking about vaccines and cancer research etc...

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02-11-2013, 08:19 PM
Questions for capitalists.
The amount of corporate execs that were held accountable are very small compared to the many that weren't. Most if the execs that helped cause the economic crisis were not held accountable.

When you say you are against coercion and violence, at which side are you against this? Prisons and weapons manufacturing and now soldiers can be privately owned. They have their prisons that they throw working class people in, they have their weapons that they kill other working class poor people with and they have private armies to send to kill and arrest poor working people, they make equipment to spy on working class people, yet earlier you said there is no class war....

Explain how you are going to convince the capitalist class to stop making weapons, stop building prisons and stop spying on people.

How do you go about stopping this without overthrowing them?
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02-11-2013, 08:23 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(02-11-2013 08:19 PM)I and I Wrote:  The amount of corporate execs that were held accountable are very small compared to the many that weren't. Most if the execs that helped cause the economic crisis were not held accountable.

When you say you are against coercion and violence, at which side are you against this? Prisons and weapons manufacturing and now soldiers can be privately owned. They have their prisons that they throw working class people in, they have their weapons that they kill other working class poor people with and they have private armies to send to kill and arrest poor working people, they make equipment to spy on working class people, yet earlier you said there is no class war....

Explain how you are going to convince the capitalist class to stop making weapons, stop building prisons and stop spying on people.

How do you go about stopping this without overthrowing them?

And here you were, actually not being too bad in a thread and than you go post all this shit.

Ahhh well.

You're an idiot I&I.

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02-11-2013, 10:08 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(02-11-2013 08:19 PM)I and I Wrote:  The amount of corporate execs that were held accountable are very small compared to the many that weren't. Most if the execs that helped cause the economic crisis were not held accountable.

And how many politicians were held accountable? ZERO. As I've corporations are WAY more accountable than government.

Quote:When you say you are against coercion and violence, at which side are you against this?

All sides

Quote:Prisons and weapons manufacturing and now soldiers can be privately owned. They have their prisons that they throw working class people in, they have their weapons that they kill other working class poor people with and they have private armies to send to kill and arrest poor working people, they make equipment to spy on working class people, yet earlier you said there is no class war....

Explain how you are going to convince the capitalist class to stop making weapons, stop building prisons and stop spying on people.

For once, I agree with you 1 million percent. I think that, since government is granted the power to use violence and lock people up, the process needs to be completely transparent and accountable. I find it ABSURD that the government is taking over things it has no business getting involved in, and the few things government IS supposed to do, like run prisons and military, has been given to private for-profit corporations that buy off politicians.

We know the drug war is not just a failure, but that it's destroying the lives of millions of people. If Obama, a self-confessed stoner in college, had gotten caught, his life would have been over. A young, black, convicted felon, ex-con who was forced out of college to serve time, would have exactly ZERO chances of being anything but a poor, manual laborer. The only reason he got to be President is because he slipped through the cracks and the system didn't catch him. I find it so infuriating that he is denying other young black men the opportunity to outgrow their stoner phase and move on to do something with their lives, and instead is locking them up in for-profit prisons, destroying their lives. The private, for-profit prisons are huge lobbyists to keep the drug war going. In fact, some of these prisons have even been caught buying off judges, who effectively Sell kids for cash, sending young kids to juvenile prison over offenses like 'talking in class' in exchange for kickbacks from the prison corporations. We agree it's obscene.

But what you seem to forget is how is that these corporations get to do what they do?
Corporations can't do it on their own. If a corporation wiretapped people like the NSA does, or locked innocent kids in jail like the for-profit corporations, or slaughtered innocent civilians like the military contractors, all the corporate officers would end up in jail.... Unless the government gives them a pass. The only reason these corporations get to do such horrific crimes is because they bribe government officials who then give them immunity from prosecution.

So when you ask "How do you go about stopping this without overthrowing them?", the question is not how do you overthrow the corporations, it's how do you change the government that's giving them protection and enabling them to do the horrible things they do? And I've explained many times already in this post how I propose getting rid of the rampant corruption in government, and making sure that nobody, whether a corporate CEO or a politician, is above the law.
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03-11-2013, 08:53 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(02-11-2013 10:08 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 08:19 PM)I and I Wrote:  The amount of corporate execs that were held accountable are very small compared to the many that weren't. Most if the execs that helped cause the economic crisis were not held accountable.

And how many politicians were held accountable? ZERO. As I've corporations are WAY more accountable than government.

Quote:When you say you are against coercion and violence, at which side are you against this?

All sides

Quote:Prisons and weapons manufacturing and now soldiers can be privately owned. They have their prisons that they throw working class people in, they have their weapons that they kill other working class poor people with and they have private armies to send to kill and arrest poor working people, they make equipment to spy on working class people, yet earlier you said there is no class war....

Explain how you are going to convince the capitalist class to stop making weapons, stop building prisons and stop spying on people.

For once, I agree with you 1 million percent. I think that, since government is granted the power to use violence and lock people up, the process needs to be completely transparent and accountable. I find it ABSURD that the government is taking over things it has no business getting involved in, and the few things government IS supposed to do, like run prisons and military, has been given to private for-profit corporations that buy off politicians.

We know the drug war is not just a failure, but that it's destroying the lives of millions of people. If Obama, a self-confessed stoner in college, had gotten caught, his life would have been over. A young, black, convicted felon, ex-con who was forced out of college to serve time, would have exactly ZERO chances of being anything but a poor, manual laborer. The only reason he got to be President is because he slipped through the cracks and the system didn't catch him. I find it so infuriating that he is denying other young black men the opportunity to outgrow their stoner phase and move on to do something with their lives, and instead is locking them up in for-profit prisons, destroying their lives. The private, for-profit prisons are huge lobbyists to keep the drug war going. In fact, some of these prisons have even been caught buying off judges, who effectively Sell kids for cash, sending young kids to juvenile prison over offenses like 'talking in class' in exchange for kickbacks from the prison corporations. We agree it's obscene.

But what you seem to forget is how is that these corporations get to do what they do?
Corporations can't do it on their own. If a corporation wiretapped people like the NSA does, or locked innocent kids in jail like the for-profit corporations, or slaughtered innocent civilians like the military contractors, all the corporate officers would end up in jail.... Unless the government gives them a pass. The only reason these corporations get to do such horrific crimes is because they bribe government officials who then give them immunity from prosecution.

So when you ask "How do you go about stopping this without overthrowing them?", the question is not how do you overthrow the corporations, it's how do you change the government that's giving them protection and enabling them to do the horrible things they do? And I've explained many times already in this post how I propose getting rid of the rampant corruption in government, and making sure that nobody, whether a corporate CEO or a politician, is above the law.

"How these corporations get to do what they do" They set up a government that is by them and for them, which they have now. You seem to think the government and the capitalist class are two distinct entities, when in reality corporate execs, business leaders often go into politics and very often after they leave politics they go right back to the business corporate world. Why do you insist on thinking that the government and the capitalist class are two distinct entities?
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03-11-2013, 09:48 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(02-11-2013 03:13 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  A Corporation is responsible to no one but itself and it's shareholders. A Government is responsible to it's people. That is the difference.

@Revenant77x, @Chas, et al.

Humor me and compare a corporation, Booz Allen, Snowden's ex-employer, to a government agency, the NSA, which performs the same functions. All recent NSA directors have all been former Booz Allen execs, who go on to head the NSA and award tens of billions in contracts to Booz Allen, and then they leave the NSA and go back to Booz Allen and collect gargantuan bonuses.

So, what you're saying is that James Clapper, when he was running Booz Allen, he was selfish--serving (or responsible to) only himself and his shareholders. However, once he moved to head the NSA, he went through a metamorphosis and became self-less--serving only the public, and responsible to, or accountable to, the people.

Clapper admits that while he was head of the NSA he perjured himself before Congress (the representative of the people), making a false testimony under oath. We all know that he didn't get so much as a slap on the write.

Q: So what would have happened to Clapper if, back when he was head of Booz Allen, he committed that very same crime, betraying the people, deliberately misleading them by perjuring himself before the people's representatives (Congress)? Do you expect he still would have gotten away with it? Or would he have gone to jail?

I'll, of course, argue that Clapper never went through any metamorphosis. While head of Booz Allen, he was only concerned with himself, and while head of NSA, he was STILL only concerned with himself. IMO the only difference is that when he became head of the NSA, he was granted super-human powers that placed him above the law so that he could commit blatant felony crimes and betray the people with impunity. Therefore, it's the exact opposite of what Revenant77x said above.
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03-11-2013, 09:56 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(03-11-2013 08:53 AM)I and I Wrote:  "How these corporations get to do what they do" They set up a government that is by them and for them, which they have now. You seem to think the government and the capitalist class are two distinct entities, when in reality corporate execs, business leaders often go into politics and very often after they leave politics they go right back to the business corporate world. Why do you insist on thinking that the government and the capitalist class are two distinct entities?

@I and I, for fuck sake, read what I'm actually writing!. I NEVER insisted that the government and capitalist class are two separate entities. Read the posts I've written several times about Booz Allen. I keep shouting that the government and corporations ARE the same, and that they have a revolving door where corporate execs head up government agencies, give their corporations billions in government contracts, and then go back to the corporations to collect millions in paychecks.

You keep insisting we are on different sides of this issue. We are NOT!!! We are on the same side. The only thing we disagree on is what to do about it!

We both agree the problem is this incestuous relationship with corporations and government. My solution is to put up a barrier to force corporations and government to stay completely separate and, as much as we can, force the corporations to exist on their own without the government. Your solution to the problem is to wed corporations and government together into one communist system.

Imagine, instead of corporations and government, the problem we're talking about is a son and a daughter who are fucking in some sick incestuous relationship and creating monstrous deformed babies. Now we're deciding what to do about it. My solution is to separate the two, ship one off to Europe, the other to South America, and do everything we can to make sure they can't keep mingling. Your solution is to just marry them and give them one house to live in together. How on earth is that going to solve the problem?! As much as you think you're the opposite of Chas, Revenant, cjlr, etc., you guys are on the SAME side of the issue. You all agree that the problem to the corrupt government/corporation collusion is to make the two even more intertwined. Only libertarians are on the opposite side arguing they need to be separated.
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03-11-2013, 11:55 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(03-11-2013 09:56 AM)frankksj Wrote:  Imagine, instead of corporations and government, the problem we're talking about is a son and a daughter who are fucking in some sick incestuous relationship and creating monstrous deformed babies. Now we're deciding what to do about it. My solution is to separate the two, ship one off to Europe, the other to South America, and do everything we can to make sure they can't keep mingling. Your solution is to just marry them and give them one house to live in together. How on earth is that going to solve the problem?! As much as you think you're the opposite of Chas, Revenant, cjlr, etc., you guys are on the SAME side of the issue. You all agree that the problem to the corrupt government/corporation collusion is to make the two even more intertwined. Only libertarians are on the opposite side arguing they need to be separated.

No, I don't. Please stop ascribing to me views I have not espoused.

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