Questions for capitalists.
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10-10-2013, 03:55 PM
Questions for capitalists.
(10-10-2013 09:46 AM)frankksj Wrote:  P.S. I _DO_ know lots of people who LOVE the corporations they work for. I've got lots of friends who work for Google. They LOVE Google. They get to eat all the fresh, delicious food they want at great restaurants -- for free -- they get massages in the office -- for free. They have spa and gym facilities in their office. They get to work one day a week on their own project--and Google still pays them. They get paid $150,000/year with lots of benefits. They are by no means being "forced" to work at Google.

Now, since I answer all your questions, please answer mine. Outside of capitalist societies, what is the best place to work, and what's it like working there? Let's compare those working conditions to Google.

You didn't establish what a free choice is. And you didn't answer whether or not an individual's wealth or lack of wealth was solely the result of the individual's actions.

Your examples of capitalism are like listening to a North Korean minder on a tour of North Korea. Only a handful of countries have benefitted from capitalism and most people under capitalism around the world live in abject poverty. Your examples only represent a small section of people living under capitalism, hence representing a false picture of capitalism to be discussed.
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10-10-2013, 04:18 PM (This post was last modified: 10-10-2013 04:22 PM by frankksj.)
RE: Questions for capitalists.
@I and I, I keep answering your questions directly and head-on. And you keep avoiding mine. You dodged this question: "Outside of capitalist societies, what is the best place to work, and what's it like working there?" And then after explaining my situation I asked if I am capital or labor and you refused to answer. If not even you can tell the difference, then doesn't that prove my point there is no difference.

(10-10-2013 03:55 PM)I and I Wrote:  You didn't establish what a free choice is.

I defer to the dictionary:
free will: free and independent choice; voluntary decision

Quote:And you didn't answer whether or not an individual's wealth or lack of wealth was solely the result of the individual's actions.

Of course not. There's a million factors. First, is where you're born and how free the country is. Second, there's genetics. In free market societies IQ is the strongest predictor of wealth--more so even than the wealth of your parents. After that is the wealth of your parents. But there's a bunch of other factors. If you've got athletic talent, or natural beauty. And frankly, why are you so obsessed with financial wealth? We all have lots of assets besides money. As I mentioned beauty and talent are assets that you can convert into money, or you can use money to buy them. So if you're so concerned about equality, why focus only on money? Shouldn't we also throw acid on beautiful women because they were born with such a valuable asset, and we want an equal society?

Quote:Your examples of capitalism are like listening to a North Korean minder on a tour of North Korea. Only a handful of countries have benefitted from capitalism and most people under capitalism around the world live in abject poverty. Your examples only represent a small section of people living under capitalism, hence representing a false picture of capitalism to be discussed.

As Milton Friedman once said, nobody is arguing that capitalism is the ONLY thing required for a free and prosperous society, but it IS a necessary component and nobody's achieved a free and prosperous society without capitalism.

As you know, I'm a classic liberal / libertarian, a believer in the philosophies of Locke, Bastiat, Jefferson, and others during the Age of Enlightenment. They all proposed a system of government with a constitutionally limited republic at the national level, which guaranteed free speech and other basic human rights, and autonomous states that made all the moral decisions, with guaranteed freedom of mobility between states.

Many countries adopted this system during the Age of Enlightenment, such as the US, Canada, Switzerland, etc. Tell me one time when it ever failed. What country tried this system and it did NOT result in a free and prosperous society? If you can't come up with one example where it ever failed, proving this is a sure-fire way to have a free and prosperous society, why are you rejecting it?

I agree most people under capitalism live under abject poverty. But that's not because of capitalism. If it was, why isn't the US, Canada, and Switzerland also in poverty? The reason most are so poor is because the governments are overpowering and oppressive, and so there's a massive transfer of wealth from the common man to the politically well-connected who ensure the common man stays down.

But economic and social freedom go hand in hand. Remember Chile used to be a brutal dictatorship (put in place by the US), a very poor country with all the wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. The dictator, Pinochet, agreed to send his economists to train under the famous libertarian Milton Friedman, and then agreed to apply these laissez-faire free-market principles to Chile. What was Friedman's prediction? He predicted that not only would this result in great economic prosperity, but more importantly, since economic freedom and social freedom are intertwined, giving the people economic freedom would crush the dictatorship and result in social freedom as well. It happened just as he predicted. Empowered with economic freedom, the people were able to overthrow the shackles their dictator imposed on them, and now Chile is regarded as both the freest and wealthiest country in all of South America.

I will ask you again. Am I capital or labor? And give me an example of ideal working conditions under your preferred political system, just as I gave you my example with Google. And, just as I've given you many examples where the classic liberal system has worked beautifully, give me one example where it has been a failure?
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11-10-2013, 09:02 AM
Questions for capitalists.
(10-10-2013 04:18 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @I and I, I keep answering your questions directly and head-on. And you keep avoiding mine. You dodged this question: "Outside of capitalist societies, what is the best place to work, and what's it like working there?" And then after explaining my situation I asked if I am capital or labor and you refused to answer. If not even you can tell the difference, then doesn't that prove my point there is no difference.

(10-10-2013 03:55 PM)I and I Wrote:  You didn't establish what a free choice is.

I defer to the dictionary:
free will: free and independent choice; voluntary decision

Quote:And you didn't answer whether or not an individual's wealth or lack of wealth was solely the result of the individual's actions.

Of course not. There's a million factors. First, is where you're born and how free the country is. Second, there's genetics. In free market societies IQ is the strongest predictor of wealth--more so even than the wealth of your parents. After that is the wealth of your parents. But there's a bunch of other factors. If you've got athletic talent, or natural beauty. And frankly, why are you so obsessed with financial wealth? We all have lots of assets besides money. As I mentioned beauty and talent are assets that you can convert into money, or you can use money to buy them. So if you're so concerned about equality, why focus only on money? Shouldn't we also throw acid on beautiful women because they were born with such a valuable asset, and we want an equal society?

Quote:Your examples of capitalism are like listening to a North Korean minder on a tour of North Korea. Only a handful of countries have benefitted from capitalism and most people under capitalism around the world live in abject poverty. Your examples only represent a small section of people living under capitalism, hence representing a false picture of capitalism to be discussed.

As Milton Friedman once said, nobody is arguing that capitalism is the ONLY thing required for a free and prosperous society, but it IS a necessary component and nobody's achieved a free and prosperous society without capitalism.

As you know, I'm a classic liberal / libertarian, a believer in the philosophies of Locke, Bastiat, Jefferson, and others during the Age of Enlightenment. They all proposed a system of government with a constitutionally limited republic at the national level, which guaranteed free speech and other basic human rights, and autonomous states that made all the moral decisions, with guaranteed freedom of mobility between states.

Many countries adopted this system during the Age of Enlightenment, such as the US, Canada, Switzerland, etc. Tell me one time when it ever failed. What country tried this system and it did NOT result in a free and prosperous society? If you can't come up with one example where it ever failed, proving this is a sure-fire way to have a free and prosperous society, why are you rejecting it?

I agree most people under capitalism live under abject poverty. But that's not because of capitalism. If it was, why isn't the US, Canada, and Switzerland also in poverty? The reason most are so poor is because the governments are overpowering and oppressive, and so there's a massive transfer of wealth from the common man to the politically well-connected who ensure the common man stays down.

But economic and social freedom go hand in hand. Remember Chile used to be a brutal dictatorship (put in place by the US), a very poor country with all the wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. The dictator, Pinochet, agreed to send his economists to train under the famous libertarian Milton Friedman, and then agreed to apply these laissez-faire free-market principles to Chile. What was Friedman's prediction? He predicted that not only would this result in great economic prosperity, but more importantly, since economic freedom and social freedom are intertwined, giving the people economic freedom would crush the dictatorship and result in social freedom as well. It happened just as he predicted. Empowered with economic freedom, the people were able to overthrow the shackles their dictator imposed on them, and now Chile is regarded as both the freest and wealthiest country in all of South America.

I will ask you again. Am I capital or labor? And give me an example of ideal working conditions under your preferred political system, just as I gave you my example with Google. And, just as I've given you many examples where the classic liberal system has worked beautifully, give me one example where it has been a failure?

You are dealing with hypotheticals referring to individual examples of capitalism. Most people in the first world and most laborers in the third world are forced to work and make someone else profit. Capitalism has been a failure in every country that wasn't a colonial power or had economic ties to colonial powers. The countries that were oppressed as colonies are still the same countries that are poor and there resources still flow toward the west. Force was used in structuring societies in this manner and force is used to maintain it. Any individual actions or choices are couched in past events and how those past events have made the present. Corporations have pressures governments to put military bases all over the world and you want to imply that the choices these countries are a free choice?

People in other countries have chosen to not let their labor and resources to profit some other group around the world but when people rise up and do this, they are attacked and sanctions implemented. Sure we can technically choose to work or live in abject poverty just like a mugger gives its victim a choice, but nobody in their right mind would call this a free choice. Hence the choice to work for shitty wages instead of be extremely poor is a choice that is backed up with fear and pressure from the system that was structured in this manner by use of force.

How many people die of hunger in capitalist countries every year? Millions every year dying of starvation not because of the lack of food but because the capitalist system is based on profit and giving tons of food away doesn't produce a profit. What kind of sick person would defend a system like that?
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11-10-2013, 10:13 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
I and I, we're getting nowhere. You keep refusing to answer questions you find uncomfortable, and you throw out "facts" that are blatantly, obviously false, and every time I point this out to you, you ignore it and pretend like facts don't matter. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your facts.

Quote:Capitalism has been a failure in every country that wasn't a colonial power or had economic ties to colonial powers.

I've already pointed out the country which most closely followed my political ideal, classic liberalism, during the 20th century. So answer these questions: Is Switzerland capitalist? Were they a colonial power? If so, what did they colonize? What special "ties" did they have to colonial powers, given that they didn't join NATO, the UN, or sign any treaties or pacts with anybody else?

You call it a failure? It's the only country in the world that has eliminated poverty (where the poorest members of society make at least half the median). I dare you go to go on google maps street view, where you'll see pictures of all the roads and property, and find one house that is not clean and safe, find one building that is in disrepair, find one pothole in any of the streets. Try to find any blight anywhere. I dare you. I double dare you. I triple dare you.

Of course, you'll run from the dare, you'll ignore the questions, you'll just stick to your made-up fantasy facts that capitalism is a failure and that whatever wealth they got they stole from other countries.

And no matter how many times I ask you to name one system that works better, you run from the challenge.

So the bottom line is I have identified a system (classic liberalism) and despite repeated challenges, you cannot come up with one time when it has been tried and not succeeded. Thus you cannot dispute it has a 100% proven track record of leading to a prosperous, happy, healthy, free society. You, on the other hand, advocate the political system of North Korea and Cuba, where people are starving to death and risking their lives trying to escape. Despite this, I still am open-minded enough to accept that maybe my preferred system isn't the best and am willing to consider your alternatives. And despite you not having any viable alternatives, you're so closed-minded that you run from all my questions, throw out wildly inaccurate facts, and in the end still insist you're correct.

Quote:What kind of sick person would defend a system like that?

I've never defended crony capitalism, where the government concentrates wealth in the hands of a few. I condemn it as much as you do. I endorse classic liberalism, like in Switzerland. You endorse communism, like in North Korea. Now compare the quality of life for the Swiss vs. the North Koreans, and I'll throw that same question back at you: What kind of sick person would defend a system like that?
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11-10-2013, 04:17 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
I don't really understand what kind of alternative I&I is attempting to suggest here.
Are you advocating for a full-on communist society? Anarchy? What? What alternative are you proposing is better to capitalism? Because I honestly feel like while capitalism has its problems, you look at the average member of a capitalist society and you'll find that they're richer, have more choices and have more freedoms. I'm not advocating the horrible aspects to capitalism, because I think there's some obvious flaws with the way it operates. But to suggest that any alternative is proven to be superior.. that's just laughable..
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11-10-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(11-10-2013 10:13 AM)frankksj Wrote:  I and I, we're getting nowhere. You keep refusing to answer questions you find uncomfortable, and you throw out "facts" that are blatantly, obviously false, and every time I point this out to you, you ignore it and pretend like facts don't matter. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your facts.

Quote:Capitalism has been a failure in every country that wasn't a colonial power or had economic ties to colonial powers.

I've already pointed out the country which most closely followed my political ideal, classic liberalism, during the 20th century. So answer these questions: Is Switzerland capitalist? Were they a colonial power? If so, what did they colonize? What special "ties" did they have to colonial powers, given that they didn't join NATO, the UN, or sign any treaties or pacts with anybody else?

You call it a failure? It's the only country in the world that has eliminated poverty (where the poorest members of society make at least half the median). I dare you go to go on google maps street view, where you'll see pictures of all the roads and property, and find one house that is not clean and safe, find one building that is in disrepair, find one pothole in any of the streets. Try to find any blight anywhere. I dare you. I double dare you. I triple dare you.

Of course, you'll run from the dare, you'll ignore the questions, you'll just stick to your made-up fantasy facts that capitalism is a failure and that whatever wealth they got they stole from other countries.

And no matter how many times I ask you to name one system that works better, you run from the challenge.

So the bottom line is I have identified a system (classic liberalism) and despite repeated challenges, you cannot come up with one time when it has been tried and not succeeded. Thus you cannot dispute it has a 100% proven track record of leading to a prosperous, happy, healthy, free society. You, on the other hand, advocate the political system of North Korea and Cuba, where people are starving to death and risking their lives trying to escape. Despite this, I still am open-minded enough to accept that maybe my preferred system isn't the best and am willing to consider your alternatives. And despite you not having any viable alternatives, you're so closed-minded that you run from all my questions, throw out wildly inaccurate facts, and in the end still insist you're correct.

Quote:What kind of sick person would defend a system like that?

I've never defended crony capitalism, where the government concentrates wealth in the hands of a few. I condemn it as much as you do. I endorse classic liberalism, like in Switzerland. You endorse communism, like in North Korea. Now compare the quality of life for the Swiss vs. the North Koreans, and I'll throw that same question back at you: What kind of sick person would defend a system like that?

You keep saying crony capitalism implying that there is a non crony way of implementing capitalism. There is no country that has not implemented the style of capitalism that exists now, leading one to say that according to history THAT (what you call crony) is capitalism. The Non Crony capitalism exists in peoples heads and dreams, actual existing capitalism is what we are discussing. I don't debate peoples wishes and hopes. If you hope that capitalism can be different than I hope that I can bang Eva Mendes tonight.

Now on to actual existing capitalism: Why are people in Cuba and North Korea living the way they do? Sanctions. Who implements these sanctions? Capitalist countries. What is the point of sanctions? To punish people for choosing to try a different system. In the actual existing capitalism this choice is punished HENCE NOT A FREE CHOICE.
Why are workers beat and punished by corporate paid police to beat striking workers, this has happened in EVERY CAPITALIST COUNTRY, yet in your hopes and dreams capitalism doesn't force people and use violence. Ronald Reagan in the 80's FORCED striking workers to go back to work. According to your hopes and dreams capitalism doesn't use force and people get to choose. There seems to be a big divide between what you wish capitalism to be and what capitalism is.

Does Sweden join in on the sanctions against Cuba? YES Do Swedens citizens benefit from the wars that other capitalist nations fight in stealing other peoples resources? YES Does swiss banking now and in the past helped transfer funds that were accumulated by capitalist countries that were accumulated by force, colonialism and NEO-colonialism.

Capitalism has failed in EVERY nation except the ones who were previous colonial powers hence they already had the resources (that were stolen) to build a rich and prosperous nation.

NOTE: capitalism is now failing in even the rich countries now.
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11-10-2013, 09:42 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
Quote:Capitalism has failed in EVERY nation except the ones who were previous colonial powers hence they already had the resources (that were stolen) to build a rich and prosperous nation.

You made that claim before and I asked you what Switzerland every colonized. Big surprise. You couldn't come up with one—because they didn't. But, since facts are absolutely irrelevant to you, you keep making the above claim. It's clear facts will NEVER change your mind.

Quote:There is no country that has not implemented the style of capitalism that exists now, leading one to say that according to history THAT (what you call crony) is capitalism.

Bull shit. In Hong Kong, they tried an experiment of positive non-intervention that was totally hands-off from the 70's until the transfer to China in the 90's. It was pure, free market capitalism at it's finest, with no special favors given to any corporations. Again, if you're going to claim otherwise, provide some evidence, some proof, some example. Oh wait, that has nothing to do with your opinion. Further, even today, while Switzerland isn't 100% free of crony capitalism, there is pretty little of it. There's been the occasional government bank bailout, but not much else. Hong Kong didn't even have that. Banks were on their own.

Quote:Why are people in Cuba and North Korea living the way they do? Sanctions.

Sure. But the Soviet Union was formed as a communist country in 1922. By 1932, it was already such a dismal failure that people were starving, and farmers weren't growing crops. This was long before the cold war or other hostilities from capitalist countries.

Quote:NOTE: capitalism is now failing in even the rich countries now.

Bull shit. 30 years ago half the planet was communist. But one by one every single one of them has converted to capitalism. That is the trend--not the other way around. China abandoned the communist economic model a long time ago, and even Cuba has been gradually abandoning it the past 10 years. Cuba now allows private property ownership, and is filled with for-profit European hotels and properties and other corporate offices.

Only North Korea is left. And they're starving and completely destitute. It's a joke to say that capitalism is failing and people are flocking to communism.
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11-10-2013, 09:48 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(10-10-2013 03:55 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 09:46 AM)frankksj Wrote:  P.S. I _DO_ know lots of people who LOVE the corporations they work for. I've got lots of friends who work for Google. They LOVE Google. They get to eat all the fresh, delicious food they want at great restaurants -- for free -- they get massages in the office -- for free. They have spa and gym facilities in their office. They get to work one day a week on their own project--and Google still pays them. They get paid $150,000/year with lots of benefits. They are by no means being "forced" to work at Google.

Now, since I answer all your questions, please answer mine. Outside of capitalist societies, what is the best place to work, and what's it like working there? Let's compare those working conditions to Google.

You didn't establish what a free choice is. And you didn't answer whether or not an individual's wealth or lack of wealth was solely the result of the individual's actions.

Your examples of capitalism are like listening to a North Korean minder on a tour of North Korea. Only a handful of countries have benefitted from capitalism and most people under capitalism around the world live in abject poverty. Your examples only represent a small section of people living under capitalism, hence representing a false picture of capitalism to be discussed.

Neither did you.
You just did your set of entrapment questions, like you always do, you disingenuous Idiot. How long is 20 questions gonna go on here ?
Troll.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist & Levitating Yogi
John 15:16 : "You did not choose me, I chose you, so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last"

Lots of fruits in beligion.
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11-10-2013, 11:21 PM
Questions for capitalists.
Billions of people living at poverty levels and
Millions dying each year due to poverty related issues isn't a failure? How low is the bar for success?

The capitalism in your head is very different from the capitalism that exists in the real world. I have no interest in debating what is in your head. I am interested in debating capitalism in the real world.

Swedens living standards and banking institutions are directly related to capitalism oppression of poor workers in the third world.

Should capitalists use sanctions as punishment for a nations choice to implement the system it wants, can people freely choose to do so, YES OR NO.
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12-10-2013, 08:23 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(11-10-2013 11:21 PM)I and I Wrote:  Billions of people living at poverty levels and
Millions dying each year due to poverty related issues isn't a failure? How low is the bar for success?

The capitalism in your head is very different from the capitalism that exists in the real world. I have no interest in debating what is in your head. I am interested in debating capitalism in the real world.

Swedens living standards and banking institutions are directly related to capitalism oppression of poor workers in the third world.

Should capitalists use sanctions as punishment for a nations choice to implement the system it wants, can people freely choose to do so, YES OR NO.
Again, I'm not seeing an alternative that would legitimately solve poverty, starvation and such. What's the point in arguing whether Capitalism has failed if you're not even going to propose a serious and realistic alternative? The real world isn't full of problems with definitive and correct solutions. This isn't like a textbook quiz question, you can't just say "This is wrong and this is right!" with any level of certainty. Is Capitalism a correct answer to the world's problems? No. It isn't. Has anyone seriously proposed a change that would work given the way humans behave? No. I really don't believe anyone has. Feel free to propose some kind of alternative and change my mind, I just think you're asking pointless questions lol.
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