Questions for capitalists.
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20-10-2013, 05:44 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
I don't want to do anything to capitalists, I want to end an economic system that has a class that does nothing but reaps all the profits from other peoples labor and can hold this profit as private property.

When workers overthrow people, they normally don't care about the blood splatter marks on some rich fucks marble floors.
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20-10-2013, 06:02 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(20-10-2013 05:40 PM)I and I Wrote:  So if you oppose using violence to end oppression by capitalists, how do you suggest to end this? Ask nicely?

Easy peasy, progressive tax rates. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
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Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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20-10-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
@I and I, I totally understand that in countries where the government picks winners and losers, power is going to be concentrated. It happens in crony capitalism, just like it happens in communism; look at Kim Jung Un's standard vs. the average N. Korean—it's even MORE staggering than in any capitalist system.

Therefore, to me the WORST thing you can do is concentrate EVEN MORE power in a central government. That's just throwing fuel on the fire, whether it's a communist system or capitalist, as shown by N Korea.

Therefore, to me, the solution is to diffuse the power. Separate it into 3 branches of government (executive, legislative, and judicial), and move decision-making to the local level. Switzerland is the only country I'm aware that stuck to this system throughout the 20th century, and the net result is that they eliminated poverty, and they are ranked amongst the happiest people on the planet. This system works, and it's non-violent. And, imo, it's the ONLY way a communist society can function. So, (a) petition your fellow countrymen to vote for a Federalist Republic (ie all the power is local), and then (b) petition like-minded communists to concentrate in one area where you can have the majority, then © lead by example. If you your communist system is successful, other locales will follow suit.
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20-10-2013, 07:42 PM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2013 08:10 PM by frankksj.)
RE: Questions for capitalists.
Quote:Easy peasy, progressive tax rates. 

@GirlyMan, I know that's the obvious solution. But what's wrong with first using our brains, a bit of logic, and good old fashioned facts first? The tax rate the wealthy pay is the 'long term capital gains rate', which is currently 15%, and is why the super rich relatively little taxes. However, it hasn't always been so low. Here's the historical data from the Tax Policy Center: link

And to make it easy to see visually the effect the tax rate has on output, I plugged those numbers into an Excel spreadsheet and put it on a chart:link

The tax rate is in red, and corresponds to the scale on the right (ie it was 40% in the 70's). The amount of tax revenue is in blue, and uses the scale on the left. You would expect the red and blue lines to follow each other. As tax rates go up, tax revenue should increase. Right? But the reality is the two lines are mirror opposites. Every time the government RAISES the tax rates, the amount of revenue the government takes in becomes LESS because simply stop earning the money. It should be pretty obvious that if the income tax rate is 0% the government will make no money. If it's 100% the government will also make no money since nobody will do anything. Therefore, there's a bell curve, or a sweet spot. Raising taxes is going to backfire if you're already ahead of the curve--it's just going to starve the government of tax revenue.

This is entirely logical and predictable. Imagine you've got 2 candidates debating what the top marginal income tax should be. One wants all income over $100k/year to be taxed at 98% (Michael Moore has advocated this). The other wants all income over $100k/year to be taxed at 1%. Therefore, if a person is currently making $100k/year, and is considering going back to school nights and weekends to earn another degree that will double his salary to $200k/year, under the 98% tax rate all this hard work will only give the guy an extra $2k/year in his pocket. So he's simply not going to bother. Whereas with a 1% tax rate, that extra work nets him $99k/year more. So, imagine you were doing a telephone survey of people currently making $100k/year, and ask them if they would be willing to go back to school if it meant they'd bring home an extra $99k/year. Let's say 50% of the people polled said 'yes'. Now ask them if they'd do it for an extra $98k/year. Obviously the number won't go up, but will likely go down a little bit. Maybe 49.9% say 'yes', I'll do it for $98k. Now continue asking the same question, lowering the reward from $99k down to $2k. When you get down to $2k, how many people are going to say 'yes'? Probably a very, very tiny number. So, every time you make the tax code more progressive, you're discouraging people from getting more education and working harder.

And penalizing education and hard work is NOT going to help poor people. This isn't even controversial. The OECD explains that the US “has the most progressive tax system” and is the only country that relies so heavily on progressive taxation to promote equality AND IT DOESN'T WORK. The OECD has proven that countries like Sweden, which have high, but flat taxes, do a much better job of creating an equal society. Sweden only has 2 federal income tax rates: 20% and 25%. Plus 24% VAT that everybody pays, and another flat 25% or so at the local level. The tax rates aren't progressive at all. EVERYBODY rich or poor pays at least half their income in taxes. And that system has done MUCH better at creating equality. And the reason is clear... If, ALL your income is taxed at 50%, there's no penalty for working harder. Work twice as much—you take home twice as much.

But, imo, Amerians are looking for an easy way out because the vast majority are completely unwilling to pay high taxes themselves—they want the other guy to pay high taxes. Everybody wants his own tax rates to be low, and other people's tax rates to be high. Which is exactly what you're saying @GirlyMan, when you call on the US to have even MORE progressive tax rates, even though the US is already the MOST progressive. Assuming you're not a 1%'er, this means you're saying 'lower my tax, but raise the rate on my rich neighbor.' In Sweden the tax system works because the people are almost universally liberal. So EVERYBODY in society is willing to pay at least half their income in taxes to ensure that there's a strong safety net and an equal society.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax#Examples for quotes from the OECD paper, which is linked in the footnotes.
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20-10-2013, 07:43 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(20-10-2013 07:38 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @I and I, I totally understand that in countries where the government picks winners and losers, power is going to be concentrated. It happens in crony capitalism, just like it happens in communism; look at Kim Jung Un's standard vs. the average N. Korean—it's even MORE staggering than in any capitalist system.

Therefore, to me the WORST thing you can do is concentrate EVEN MORE power in a central government. That's just throwing fuel on the fire, whether it's a communist system or capitalist, as shown by N Korea.

Therefore, to me, the solution is to diffuse the power. Separate it into 3 branches of government (executive, legislative, and judicial), and move decision-making to the local level. Switzerland is the only country I'm aware that stuck to this system throughout the 20th century, and the net result is that they eliminated poverty, and they are ranked amongst the happiest people on the planet. This system works, and it's non-violent. And, imo, it's the ONLY way a communist society can function. So, (a) petition your fellow countrymen to vote for a Federalist Republic (ie all the power is local), and then (b) petition like-minded communists to concentrate in one area where you can have the majority, then © lead by example. If you your communist system is successful, other locales will follow suit.

Or you could just move to the People's Republic of Maryland where we take care of our own and still have the highest income per capita of all the States. Suck it. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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20-10-2013, 08:07 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(20-10-2013 07:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:Easy peasy, progressive tax rates. 

@GirlyMan. Let's use our brains and some facts first.

You're overcomplicating and otherwise obscuring simple shit. A 90% tax bracket over and above your first billion means you only get to keep $100 million on your next billions. Boo hoo hoo.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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20-10-2013, 08:20 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(20-10-2013 08:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  @GirlyMan. Let's use our brains and some facts first.
You're overcomplicating and otherwise obscuring simple shit. A 90% tax bracket over and above your first billion means you only get to keep $100 million on your next billions. Boo hoo hoo.
[/quote]

No, you're oversimplifying it without thinking this through. My facts were sound. Hell, I have the OECD on my side backing me up.

Anyway, let's say we do it your way. How many people make over $1 billion? Warren Buffet released his tax returns. He only made a paltry $27 million. So, with your proposed "solution" (a) chances are it will have zero effect because almost nobody makes that much anyway, and (b) what about the guy whose income is "only" $999 million? In your system, he gets away without any tax increase. Bottom line, you're just swinging a club without thinking any of this through.

Lastly, what _IF_ there was a person whose income was $1 billion? Once you slap him with a 90% tax on all income over $1 billion, do you think he's going to use his money to invest in factories and other enterprises to grow his empire more (creating jobs along the way)? Why would he, given that for every $1 he earns, 90% goes to the government. So he's better off to squander that extra income, rather than invest it. That is the WORST thing you can do to the unemployed Americans struggling to find a job. _IF_ you want to slap the billionaires with a massive tax, instead of capital gains/income taxes, you're better off to use CONSUMPTION and PROPERTY taxes. That way, rather they're discouraged from spending all their money on frivolous luxury and outrageous mansions, and encouraged to invest it in factories and enterprise. But you proposed the opposite system--where they're discouraged from investing, and encouraged to spend all their money on extravagant living.

Do you have any facts, data, logic or anything else of substance to support your position?
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20-10-2013, 08:23 PM
Questions for capitalists.
(20-10-2013 08:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(20-10-2013 07:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @GirlyMan. Let's use our brains and some facts first.

You're overcomplicating and otherwise obscuring simple shit. A 90% tax bracket over and above your first billion means you only get to keep $100 million on your next billions. Boo hoo hoo.

A progressively increasing tax is what most leftists governments implement. A tax that progressively becomes higher for people that employ over x amount of people is how to dissolve the capitalist class entirely. There will be some members of the capitalist class that will use their money to fund counter revolutions and propaganda, these members will be dealt with differently.
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20-10-2013, 08:24 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(20-10-2013 08:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(20-10-2013 07:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @GirlyMan. Let's use our brains and some facts first.

You're overcomplicating and otherwise obscuring simple shit. A 90% tax bracket over and above your first billion means you only get to keep $100 million on your next billions. Boo hoo hoo.

That's fucking stupid.
90% tax? Are you a fucking retard?

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20-10-2013, 08:26 PM
Questions for capitalists.
EXAMPLE: Hugo Chavez didn't jail any owners of media outlets that assisted in the failed coup attempt against him, however when those media outlets broadcasting licenses expired, the Chavez government denied them a renewed license. Most capitalist countries wouldn't have been so nice.
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