Questions for capitalists.
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21-10-2013, 01:47 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2013 03:25 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(20-10-2013 09:51 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(20-10-2013 09:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Girly knows when enough is enough. I ain't as stupid as I look.

I imagine that's a joke. "Enough" is always defined as at least twice what I have. I'm sure when you were making $30k/year, you thought $100k would be "enough", but now that you're at $150k, the bar just keeps going higher. Smile

Nope. Not a joke. Bar stopped rising a decade or so ago. I got more than enough. Don't need no more, don't want no more. If the bar don't stop rising after some point some introspection is warranted.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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23-10-2013, 06:47 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(21-10-2013 12:10 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:You just walked into a trap. In the U.S. In the 50's there was a 90 percent tax for the rich, and this is when the economy was rising as well.

Actually, no. Look at the amount of tax revenue the government collected from the rich in the booming 50's and 60's. It's LESS. Government actually had a smaller percent of the nation's gdp. This is because the 90% tax rate was purely symbolic--nobody actually had to pay it. There was no FATCA, no 'controlled foreign corporation' laws, no 'foreign bank account reporting', no restrictions on emigration, etc. So the rich moved all their assets offshore.

IMO, it was actually a bad policy because today it's estimated that the rich are holding $21 trillion offshore: Forbes link That's MORE than the entire economy of the US and Japan combined. Imagine how much better off we'd be if that $21 trillion was still here, in the economy, building factories, creating jobs, inventing new products, and not parked in the Cayman Islands.

And what is your evidence that this 90 percent was purely symbolic and wasn't paid?
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23-10-2013, 06:49 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(21-10-2013 12:10 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:You just walked into a trap. In the U.S. In the 50's there was a 90 percent tax for the rich, and this is when the economy was rising as well.

Actually, no. Look at the amount of tax revenue the government collected from the rich in the booming 50's and 60's. It's LESS. Government actually had a smaller percent of the nation's gdp. This is because the 90% tax rate was purely symbolic--nobody actually had to pay it. There was no FATCA, no 'controlled foreign corporation' laws, no 'foreign bank account reporting', no restrictions on emigration, etc. So the rich moved all their assets offshore.

IMO, it was actually a bad policy because today it's estimated that the rich are holding $21 trillion offshore: Forbes link That's MORE than the entire economy of the US and Japan combined. Imagine how much better off we'd be if that $21 trillion was still here, in the economy, building factories, creating jobs, inventing new products, and not parked in the Cayman Islands.

Ooh Ooh Ooh, what country do you think these capitalists move their assets to to avoid this tax?

Drinking Beverage
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23-10-2013, 08:47 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(23-10-2013 06:47 AM)I and I Wrote:  And what is your evidence that this 90 percent was purely symbolic and wasn't paid?

This isn't even disputed. The % of gdp taken by the government was less, and you can download from taxpolicy.org the amount of revenue the federal government has collected historically, and the government was taking in LESS of a % back then when it was 90% than today when it's 30-40%. Also, the percent of tax paid by the richest 10% is higher now than it was during this period.
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23-10-2013, 08:51 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(23-10-2013 06:49 AM)I and I Wrote:  Ooh Ooh Ooh, what country do you think these capitalists move their assets to to avoid this tax?

Drinking Beverage

The CNN article that was covering it said mostly to island states in the Caribbean and South Pacific, like the Caymans.
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23-10-2013, 09:35 AM
Questions for capitalists.
(23-10-2013 08:51 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 06:49 AM)I and I Wrote:  Ooh Ooh Ooh, what country do you think these capitalists move their assets to to avoid this tax?

Drinking Beverage

The CNN article that was covering it said mostly to island states in the Caribbean and South Pacific, like the Caymans.

There is a country in Europe that also took in vast sums of wealth from people escaping taxes. I can't remember the name if it, help me out. I think starts with an S and ends with an N.

Help me out.
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23-10-2013, 11:14 AM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(23-10-2013 09:35 AM)I and I Wrote:  There is a country in Europe that also took in vast sums of wealth from people escaping taxes. I can't remember the name if it, help me out. I think starts with an S and ends with an N.

Help me out.

Okay. You need spell check. Sweden didn't do this. Switzerland did. It ends with a D.

And, yes, that's my point. Switzerland's government runs so efficiently thanks to the strict federalist system, that their taxes are very, very low, and the quality of their services is very, very high, so lots of people do flock to Switzerland. Also, they do not use violence to collect taxes; nobody is threatened at gunpoint if they refuse to pay their taxes. It's a civilized, violence-free system. So, yes, lots of people who are tired of having a gun at their head go to Switzerland. This is my whole point. The system works. People like it. And the Swiss do MUCH better with their system than the more oppressive governments do.

So what's YOUR point? You seem to somehow be condemning Switzerland for this. Well, imagine instead of countries we were talking about companies, and we were comparing one company that treats its employees harshly and violently and shoots them if they don't disclose to their superiors every detail in their life, and so the employees are leaving and taking their assets (skills, talents, etc.) to another company which treats them with respect and provides a pleasant work environment. Would you still be condemning the non-violent company for having the audacity to provide such a good working environment that the violent company is deprived of its most valued assets (its people)?

And if we were debating corporate governance instead of politics, and I kept arguing that the non-violent company is going to do much better, and the violent one was going to suffer, and we both agreed that was happening, would you still argue that means I was wrong?

Of course not. That would be absurd. But you argue just that when we're debating countries--not companies. See, somehow you think that all the rules and logic change if, on the entity formation check box is 'government' and not 'corporation'. Somehow, if it's government, they're above the law. They can use violence against their people, and it's not their fault--it's the fault of the non-violent countries. In fact you'll argue that if the person firing the gun is a government employee, then it's not really violence.
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24-10-2013, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 24-10-2013 07:31 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(23-10-2013 11:14 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 09:35 AM)I and I Wrote:  There is a country in Europe that also took in vast sums of wealth from people escaping taxes. I can't remember the name if it, help me out. I think starts with an S and ends with an N.

Help me out.

Okay. You need spell check. Sweden didn't do this. Switzerland did. It ends with a D.

Yeah ISquared keeps confusing the two. But let's be clear, the only markets where capitalism exists are the black markets of drugs, guns, and sex and the only place communism exists is on small-scale hippie communes, Hebrew Kibbutzes and Buddhist monasteries. Neither one scales. We are all socialist, we are just arguing about the appropriate degree of socialism. Once we admit this fact we can start to discuss intelligibly. As long as "socialism" remains a dirty word when most of all civilization, including the US, is socialist to one degree or another further discussion is just a waste of words.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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24-10-2013, 07:21 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(24-10-2013 07:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 11:14 AM)frankksj Wrote:  Okay. You need spell check. Sweden didn't do this. Switzerland did. It ends with a D.

Yeah ISquared keeps confusing the two. But let's be clear, the only market where capitalism exists is the black markets of drugs, guns, and sex and the only place communism exists is on small-scale hippie communes, Herbrew Kibbutzes and Buddhist monasteries. Neither one scales. We are all socialist, we are just arguing about the appropriate degree of socialism. Once we get past this fact we can start to discuss intelligibly. As long as "socialism" remains a dirty word when most of all civilization, including the US, is socialist to one degree or another further discussion is just a waste of words.

Bob you just got my vote for president next go around.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-10-2013, 07:28 PM
RE: Questions for capitalists.
(24-10-2013 07:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 07:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah ISquared keeps confusing the two. But let's be clear, the only market where capitalism exists is the black markets of drugs, guns, and sex and the only place communism exists is on small-scale hippie communes, Herbrew Kibbutzes and Buddhist monasteries. Neither one scales. We are all socialist, we are just arguing about the appropriate degree of socialism. Once we get past this fact we can start to discuss intelligibly. As long as "socialism" remains a dirty word when most of all civilization, including the US, is socialist to one degree or another further discussion is just a waste of words.

Bob you just got my vote for president next go around.

"If drafted, I will not run; if nominated, I will not accept; if elected, I will not serve." - GirlyMan Tecumseh Sherman

Girly ain't as stupid as I look. Big Grin

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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