Questions for the Christian believer
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16-12-2011, 02:49 PM
Questions for the Christian believer
Dear Members,

To promote skepticism/critical thinking I wrote some questions for the Christian believer. Are you able to put the link to these questions at this forum.

Thank you very much,

Piet - Rotterdam - Netherlands.

The original questions

http://www.freethinker.nl/forum/viewtop ... =31&t=8382
The translation
http://www.freethinker.nl/forum/viewtop ... 31&t=10033
The first one who did this, was Jonathan. This is a good example.
http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/tou ... believers/

Ps. If someone be able to translate the last part using google translate. And perform it in more sophisticated Englisch. I appreciate that. It is quite a hard job for someone who is not a native Englisch person. Thanks for your attention!!
I am going to read a lot off topics. The most interesting subjects are going to the Netherlands. It is not my purpose to discuss. A problem with the language.
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16-12-2011, 04:08 PM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(16-12-2011 02:49 PM)Piet Wrote:  Dear Members,

To promote skepticism/critical thinking I wrote some questions for the Christian believer. Are you able to put the link to these questions at this forum.

Thank you very much,

Piet - Rotterdam - Netherlands.

The original questions

http://www.freethinker.nl/forum/viewtop ... =31&t=8382
The translation
http://www.freethinker.nl/forum/viewtop ... 31&t=10033
The first one who did this, was Jonathan. This is a good example.
http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/tou ... believers/

Ps. If someone be able to translate the last part using google translate. And perform it in more sophisticated Englisch. I appreciate that. It is quite a hard job for someone who is not a native Englisch person. Thanks for your attention!!
I am going to read a lot off topics. The most interesting subjects are going to the Netherlands. It is not my purpose to discuss. A problem with the language.

Those are a lot of questions. I am looking over the bottom section and trying to translate them. I used google but some of it is a little mixed up. Unless someone beats me to it I'll try my best.

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

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16-12-2011, 10:13 PM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
Edit: never mind

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16-12-2011, 11:28 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2012 04:06 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
I'm going to try my best to answer these. There are a lot, and it will probably take several days... so bear with me.

1. Where does your god come from?

Is this even a fair question when quantum physics is such a mystery in our observable dimension? We have observed, on the quantum level, particles appearing and disappearing from nowhere. Quantum physics is based on the idea that nothing creates something. If this is observable science is it really that much of a stretch to say that either A) God has always been here or B) God came from nothing?

2. What is your god made of?

This question, like #1, isn’t really fair either. Theoretical science has created a bevy of mind blowing questions that are completely unanswerable and almost unfathomable. Physically speaking, there’s dark matter. We are just establishing its existence. We know it’s there. We can observe it. But, we don’t have the slightest clue what its makeup is. And, who’s to say it’s even anything that’s bound by our laws of physics. And then, we move on to other dimensions and their possibilities… which have the possibility to hold brand new laws of existence and physics that we cannot mentally or physically comprehend. Much like the example of a 3D person entering a 2D world, the 2D inhabitants cannot understand the 3rd dimension; despite the fact that they’re looking at it. These are all thought processes and theories thought up by brilliant men/scientists and they cannot even begin to give a concrete definition or provide any evidence; however, it is believed that this is not only within the realm of possibilities, but it is also very likely. If God is infinite and created all this mind boggling stuff, why is he going to be bound by what we understand as physical matter? I guess the answer is God. God is made of God.

3. What gender is your god? The Bible speaks of a male.

God is referred to in the male gender because of the language of the time. It’s something that people would understand and relate to. God has no gender, but he is referred to as a male because of the social culture of the time.

4. Why did your god need to make the earth?

Humanity and the earth were created for the reason of giving Jesus a purpose and an inheritance.

5. What is the purpose of millions of galaxies?

The soft Christian answer would be so that God could show His glory and His infinite power to us. My answer is because God is a God of order. When God created evolution and set the world in motion, He also created the science behind it. For the earth to be created and eventually evolve into the planet that He wanted, the cosmos had to be set in motion by a grand plan. Big Bang… whatever you want to call it, but the birth of the universe had to have order. As a result of this order, billions of galaxies had to be created in order to enact His plan that would take place on our tiny planet.

6. Why didn't this omnipotent god create the universe in a single stroke with a clear vision in mind?

He did. I assume you’re referring to Genesis 1 and 2. They are written as ancient cosmology. They are written in exalted language – something completely different that the rest of Genesis. It’s written as something people of that time would understand. There were several stories of creation from different cultures, and that framework is used to explain what God did. The first part of Genesis is not completely literal, as it’s written in a “show language” for the people of the time so they would understand the concept that was being conveyed by paralleling it to the popular stories of the time. (there is a lot more on Genesis 1 and 2 I could write, but the I feel that’s enough to answer the question)

I'll answer more tomorrow.

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17-12-2011, 01:49 AM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(16-12-2011 11:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm going to try my best to answer these. There are a lot, and it will probably take several days... so bear with me.

1. Where does your god come from?

Is this even a fair question when quantum physics is such a mystery in our observable dimension? We have observed, on the quantum level, particles appearing and disappearing from nowhere. Quantum physics is based on the idea that nothing creates something. If this is observable science is it really that much of a stretch to say that either A) God has always been here or B) God came from nothing?

2. What is your god made of?

This question, like #1, isn’t really fair either. Theoretical science has created a bevy of mind blowing questions that are completely unanswerable and almost unfathomable. Physically speaking, there’s dark matter. We are just establishing its existence. We know it’s there. We can observe it. But, we don’t have the slightest clue what its makeup is. And, who’s to say it’s even anything that’s bound by our laws of physics. And then, we move on to other dimensions and their possibilities… which have the possibility to hold brand new laws of existence and physics that we cannot mentally or physically comprehend. Much like the example of a 3D person entering a 2D world, the 2D inhabitants cannot understand the 3rd dimension; despite the fact that they’re looking at it. These are all thought processes and theories thought up by brilliant men/scientists and they cannot even begin to give a concrete definition or provide any evidence; however, it is believed that this is not only within the realm of possibilities, but it is also very likely. If God is infinite and created all this mind boggling stuff, why is he going to be bound by what we understand as physical matter? I guess the answer is God. God is made of God.

3. What gender is your god? The Bible speaks of a male.

God is referred to in the male gender because of the language of the time. It’s something that people would understand and relate to. God has no gender, but he is referred to as a male because of the social culture of the time.

4. Why did your god need to make the earth?

Humanity and the earth were created for the reason of giving Jesus a purpose and an inheritance.

5. What is the purpose of millions of galaxies?

The soft Christian answer would be so that God could show His glory and His infinite power to us. My answer is because God is a God of order. When God created evolution and set the world in motion, He also created the science behind it. For the earth to be created and eventually evolve into the planet that He wanted, the cosmos had to be set in motion by a grand plan. Big Bang… whatever you want to call it, but the birth of the universe had to have order. As a result of this order, billions of galaxies had to be created in order to enact His plan that would take place on our tiny planet.

6. Why didn't this omnipotent god create the universe in a single stroke with a clear vision in mind?

He did. I assume you’re referring to Genesis 1 and 2. They are written as ancient cosmetology. They are written in exalted language – something completely different that the rest of Genesis. It’s written as something people of that time would understand. There were several stories of creation from different cultures, and that framework is used to explain what God did. The first part of Genesis is not completely literal, as it’s written in a “show language” for the people of the time so they would understand the concept that was being conveyed by paralleling it to the popular stories of the time. (there is a lot more on Genesis 1 and 2 I could write, but the I feel that’s enough to answer the question)

I'll answer more tomorrow.

Sorry, kingschosen, these are poor answers. They didn't come from either the bible or from science... you're either guessing yourself or citing someone else's guesses. But in the interest of fairness, from a debater's standpoint, let me give you some solid answers.

The answer to every question listed above is: we don't know, and we don't have to know. There is an obvious fallacy here called the Argument from Ignorance, where you posit that a lack of answer means that you can insert your own.

When I argue evolution with people like my Christian parents, they ask stupid questions like "so why are people born gay if that's not fit for survival?" and I answer "I don't know. I don't have to know. Evolution works even if we can't explain every single detail. Just because we don't have an answer doesn't mean that the answer is God." This is the same argument in reverse, and I wouldn't dignify it with made-up answers just to satisfy it. You can't posit atheism just because the God hypothesis is lacking details. It's the Nongod of the Gaps argument.

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17-12-2011, 05:02 AM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
Thank you Kingschosen for your reply. I appreciate your effort.
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17-12-2011, 05:10 AM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(16-12-2011 11:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  1. Where does your god come from?

Is this even a fair question when quantum physics is such a mystery in our observable dimension? We have observed, on the quantum level, particles appearing and disappearing from nowhere. Quantum physics is based on the idea that nothing creates something. If this is observable science is it really that much of a stretch to say that either A) God has always been here or B) God came from nothing?
Yes it is a very fair question. And yes it is a wide stretch from Big Bang to "God has always been there" and "God came from nothing".
Noone says that the Big Bang means that something came from nothing. You might wanna research the theory of the Big Bang a bit more before you say that Smile
Start with wikipedia it explains really well and even has links that give you more explanations about some of the words you might not understand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
Just like christians always say "You have to read the bible first" I say "You have to read some science first"

(16-12-2011 11:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  2. What is your god made of?

This question, like #1, isn’t really fair either. Theoretical science has created a bevy of mind blowing questions that are completely unanswerable and almost unfathomable. Physically speaking, there’s dark matter. We are just establishing its existence. We know it’s there. We can observe it. But, we don’t have the slightest clue what its makeup is. And, who’s to say it’s even anything that’s bound by our laws of physics. And then, we move on to other dimensions and their possibilities… which have the possibility to hold brand new laws of existence and physics that we cannot mentally or physically comprehend. Much like the example of a 3D person entering a 2D world, the 2D inhabitants cannot understand the 3rd dimension; despite the fact that they’re looking at it. These are all thought processes and theories thought up by brilliant men/scientists and they cannot even begin to give a concrete definition or provide any evidence; however, it is believed that this is not only within the realm of possibilities, but it is also very likely. If God is infinite and created all this mind boggling stuff, why is he going to be bound by what we understand as physical matter? I guess the answer is God. God is made of God.
And yes, also this answer is fair.
If God is made of God, is wood made of wood and stone made of stone? Are you serious? Something that is supposed to be thinking and acting and existing must be made of something. Even saying "God is made of an airbubble with a floating brain in the middle" would have been a better answer then "God is made of God". Not more logical, don't take that the wrong way.

(16-12-2011 11:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  3. What gender is your god? The Bible speaks of a male.

God is referred to in the male gender because of the language of the time. It’s something that people would understand and relate to. God has no gender, but he is referred to as a male because of the social culture of the time.
But still men have the better card in the very christian places. I wonder why that is. I don't think that people would have failed to understand the idea of a higher being if it had no gender or if it were female or even both. Look into mythology that is much older than the bible, people believed in all kinds of Gods male and female and even animals.

(16-12-2011 11:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  4. Why did your god need to make the earth?

Humanity and the earth were created for the reason of giving Jesus a purpose and an inheritance.
Jesus doesn't count here, sorry. If Jesus was a nice little toy for God (and that's what you are painting here) he could have created Jesus and played with it but without earth or people.
It's like you buy a carpet to give your little toycar a purpose. Well guess what, you can play with that car without a carpet.

(16-12-2011 11:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  5. What is the purpose of millions of galaxies?

The soft Christian answer would be so that God could show His glory and His infinite power to us. My answer is because God is a God of order. When God created evolution and set the world in motion, He also created the science behind it. For the earth to be created and eventually evolve into the planet that He wanted, the cosmos had to be set in motion by a grand plan. Big Bang… whatever you want to call it, but the birth of the universe had to have order. As a result of this order, billions of galaxies had to be created in order to enact His plan that would take place on our tiny planet.
@ soft christian answer: Wow God must be an insecure show off then.
@ your answer: In question 6 you refer to Genesis yourself. Here you say God made evolution but in Genesis nothing evolved but he made things in steps that do not follow the rules of evolution.

(16-12-2011 11:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  6. Why didn't this omnipotent god create the universe in a single stroke with a clear vision in mind?

He did. I assume you’re referring to Genesis 1 and 2. They are written as ancient cosmetology. They are written in exalted language – something completely different that the rest of Genesis. It’s written as something people of that time would understand. There were several stories of creation from different cultures, and that framework is used to explain what God did. The first part of Genesis is not completely literal, as it’s written in a “show language” for the people of the time so they would understand the concept that was being conveyed by paralleling it to the popular stories of the time. (there is a lot more on Genesis 1 and 2 I could write, but the I feel that’s enough to answer the question)
A single stroke means *snip there you are earth with everything on it and the universe around*. Not let's do this now and that tomorrow and and and. Isn't the God of the bible omnipotent and could do it in a blink of the eye? Even the evolution that, in your opinion, god created (question 5) wouldn't be necessary in that case.

Sorry, but your answers aren't answers yet. Nice of you that you do try to make the effort to answer anyway.

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17-12-2011, 09:02 AM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2011 09:21 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(17-12-2011 01:49 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(16-12-2011 11:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm going to try my best to answer these. There are a lot, and it will probably take several days... so bear with me.

1. Where does your god come from?

Is this even a fair question when quantum physics is such a mystery in our observable dimension? We have observed, on the quantum level, particles appearing and disappearing from nowhere. Quantum physics is based on the idea that nothing creates something. If this is observable science is it really that much of a stretch to say that either A) God has always been here or B) God came from nothing?

2. What is your god made of?

This question, like #1, isn’t really fair either. Theoretical science has created a bevy of mind blowing questions that are completely unanswerable and almost unfathomable. Physically speaking, there’s dark matter. We are just establishing its existence. We know it’s there. We can observe it. But, we don’t have the slightest clue what its makeup is. And, who’s to say it’s even anything that’s bound by our laws of physics. And then, we move on to other dimensions and their possibilities… which have the possibility to hold brand new laws of existence and physics that we cannot mentally or physically comprehend. Much like the example of a 3D person entering a 2D world, the 2D inhabitants cannot understand the 3rd dimension; despite the fact that they’re looking at it. These are all thought processes and theories thought up by brilliant men/scientists and they cannot even begin to give a concrete definition or provide any evidence; however, it is believed that this is not only within the realm of possibilities, but it is also very likely. If God is infinite and created all this mind boggling stuff, why is he going to be bound by what we understand as physical matter? I guess the answer is God. God is made of God.

3. What gender is your god? The Bible speaks of a male.

God is referred to in the male gender because of the language of the time. It’s something that people would understand and relate to. God has no gender, but he is referred to as a male because of the social culture of the time.

4. Why did your god need to make the earth?

Humanity and the earth were created for the reason of giving Jesus a purpose and an inheritance.

5. What is the purpose of millions of galaxies?

The soft Christian answer would be so that God could show His glory and His infinite power to us. My answer is because God is a God of order. When God created evolution and set the world in motion, He also created the science behind it. For the earth to be created and eventually evolve into the planet that He wanted, the cosmos had to be set in motion by a grand plan. Big Bang… whatever you want to call it, but the birth of the universe had to have order. As a result of this order, billions of galaxies had to be created in order to enact His plan that would take place on our tiny planet.

6. Why didn't this omnipotent god create the universe in a single stroke with a clear vision in mind?

He did. I assume you’re referring to Genesis 1 and 2. They are written as ancient cosmetology. They are written in exalted language – something completely different that the rest of Genesis. It’s written as something people of that time would understand. There were several stories of creation from different cultures, and that framework is used to explain what God did. The first part of Genesis is not completely literal, as it’s written in a “show language” for the people of the time so they would understand the concept that was being conveyed by paralleling it to the popular stories of the time. (there is a lot more on Genesis 1 and 2 I could write, but the I feel that’s enough to answer the question)

I'll answer more tomorrow.

Sorry, kingschosen, these are poor answers. They didn't come from either the bible or from science... you're either guessing yourself or citing someone else's guesses. But in the interest of fairness, from a debater's standpoint, let me give you some solid answers.

The answer to every question listed above is: we don't know, and we don't have to know. There is an obvious fallacy here called the Argument from Ignorance, where you posit that a lack of answer means that you can insert your own.

When I argue evolution with people like my Christian parents, they ask stupid questions like "so why are people born gay if that's not fit for survival?" and I answer "I don't know. I don't have to know. Evolution works even if we can't explain every single detail. Just because we don't have an answer doesn't mean that the answer is God." This is the same argument in reverse, and I wouldn't dignify it with made-up answers just to satisfy it. You can't posit atheism just because the God hypothesis is lacking details. It's the Nongod of the Gaps argument.

Yes, they are guesses. They are my guesses because, as you said, I don't know and don't need to know. However, I tried my best to answer from what I've learned from science and the Bible. If I just said, "I don't know" I would have gotten crucified for answering like that. So, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Also, please go into how I'm wrong scientifically. I want to correct this for future understanding.
@Leela
1) I understand the Big Bang, and I didn't say the Big Bang came from nothing. I was talking about quantum physics.

2) I explained why I said "God is made of God". He's made of something we don't understand.

3) Yeah, but in Mid-Eastern culture at the time. Other mythologies =/= the society of the OT people.

4) This is a theistic argument. Jesus does count. I explain theistically why, and you counter with an atheistic answer. You cannot argue atheistically when you're talking theistically unless the argument is atheism vs theism.

In my Christian theology, the purpose of humanity is Jesus; so therefore, the purpose of the earth is Jesus. You can argue from a different theistic point of view, but my answer is rooted in theology and is acceptable based on what is learned in the Bible.

5/6) I explained why Genesis was written like that. I also explained why God didn't just *poof* everything. God created and set evolution in motion.
Oh, and I'm not going to answer every rebuttal to my answers - I'll be here forever. I'll try, but no promises if I'm going to try to answer all those questions plus keep up with my other topic.

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17-12-2011, 09:37 AM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(17-12-2011 09:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, please go into how I'm wrong scientifically. I want to correct this for future understanding.

Did I say you were scientifically wrong? No, a review of my statement said that science didn't provide the answers, either.

I know it may be embarrassing to say "I don't know" to a pointed question, but if you can't cite or source your answer, it really is the most logical answer. And you don't have to answer these questions to refute them.

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17-12-2011, 10:13 AM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(17-12-2011 09:37 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(17-12-2011 09:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, please go into how I'm wrong scientifically. I want to correct this for future understanding.

Did I say you were scientifically wrong? No, a review of my statement said that science didn't provide the answers, either.

I know it may be embarrassing to say "I don't know" to a pointed question, but if you can't cite or source your answer, it really is the most logical answer. And you don't have to answer these questions to refute them.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you.

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