Questions for the Christian believer
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20-12-2011, 03:09 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2011 03:19 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(20-12-2011 02:53 PM)Elcarch Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 09:08 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  In my opinion, no. I believe the foundation is based in grace and love. It is by God’s grace and love that any of us are saved.

But surely that is just paraphrasing of "It's based on fear"?

If there is no fear of the alternative to salvation, then where does the need for salvation arise? Don't you fear that which you are saved from, that which god himself created?

(20-12-2011 09:08 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I believe in the infallibility of the Bible.

So, how would you reconcile the story of the global flood with the complete and utter absence of any evidence to suggest such an event ever took place?

Your assumptions are based on a theology I do not share. In other words, do not say what you think I believe unless you know what I believe. If you don't know what I believe, then ask me. Then, from that, you can draw your conclusions.
(20-12-2011 03:02 PM)Elcarch Wrote:  
(17-12-2011 11:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It is my understanding that the instructions that are given to the Jews by God during that time where for the Jews only. The instructions where there so that the Jews would be separate from all others. Their rituals would stand alone as their religion. This is also the basis of purity laws. A blood sacrifice is needed to represent the God’s covenant with man and to atone for sin. Even though Christ’s sacrifice atoned for all sin, God commanded the Jews to make animal sacrifice for atonement so that they would be reminded of their covenant with God. There is no clear answer as to the “why didn’t God do it this way” questions because we aren’t God. It would the same thing if someone asked you why I chose to eat pizza tonight instead salad. You don’t know my reasons or my mind.

So you think it is perfectly reasonable for god to present the jews with a supposed cure for leprosy that simply does not work in any way, shape or form? Isn't that the mark of a malignant entity that simply toys with mortals for his amusement?

So, you were there? You saw that it didn't work? Yeah, scientifically it makes ZERO sense, but we're dealing with a supernatural belief within a theistic discussion.

Anyway, my belief is that God gave these instructions to the Jews so that they would follow in faith and God would reward them.

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20-12-2011, 03:25 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2011 03:42 PM by Elcarch.)
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(20-12-2011 03:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Your assumptions are based on a theology I do not share.

You were the one who said those things, are you now backing down from your claim that the Bible is infallible?

(20-12-2011 03:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, you were there? You saw that it didn't work? Yeah, scientifically it makes ZERO sense, but we're dealing with a supernatural belief within a theistic discussion.

Anyway, my belief is that God gave these instructions to the Jews so that they would follow in faith and God would reward them.

That isn't really how science works, is it?

First, you ought to prove that the event in question even took place to begin with, or else it's not reasonable to believe it did, and hence there is no reason to believe god, if he were proven to exist, ever gave such an instruction to the jews.

Second, you ought to prove that such a clearly bogus nonsensical thing ever cured leprosy, or there is absolutely no reason whatsoever in the world to believe it did.

I find it quite annoying how some people insist on applying such lax standards of evidence to things they approve of that they would never accept in any other aspect of their lives.

If I tell you the world will end lest you give me all your money, you'd think me daft, but when an old book containing countless historical accounts the veracity of which has never been established tells you to do something, you do it without question, just because it is YOUR book.

Edit: You mustn't take this as any kind of attack, it's just a questioning of your arguments, which I view as flawed. I consider pointing out holes in someone's reasoning as a sign of respect, and an acknowledgement of intellectual equality.
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20-12-2011, 03:31 PM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(20-12-2011 03:09 PM)Jim Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 03:05 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Dat zouden wij ten zeerste appreciëren kerels... Wink
Ojee, geemigreerd, of gewoon lekker op een buitenlands forum?
Maar laten we niet het topic kapen.....
(emigrated or just happy on a foreign forum? But lets not hijack the topic)
Just a humble member on a foreign forum. (I'm not Dutch either)
but remember... Observer is observing you... Smile

I'm looking at your translation but I'm a father of a 9 month old girl and have some personal demons to conquer at the moment. I'm sorry.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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20-12-2011, 03:45 PM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(20-12-2011 03:31 PM)The_observer Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 03:09 PM)Jim Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 03:05 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Dat zouden wij ten zeerste appreciëren kerels... Wink
Ojee, geemigreerd, of gewoon lekker op een buitenlands forum?
Maar laten we niet het topic kapen.....
(emigrated or just happy on a foreign forum? But lets not hijack the topic)
Just a humble member on a foreign forum. (I'm not Dutch either)
but remember... Observer is observing you... Smile

I'm looking at your translation but I'm a father of a 9 month old girl and have some personal demons to conquer at the moment. I'm sorry.
Ah, 9 months.
I had the last 12 years ago.
I go to bed, in 6 hours I must go out of it, because the boss is starting to scream. Smile

Note: To send this message, no trees cut down,
although there are many electrons severely hindered.
All the bits are reused.

Future World

73 Jim .--. . .---- .-. . .- PE1REA
Email, put amsat dot org behind the call
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20-12-2011, 03:52 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2011 03:57 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(20-12-2011 03:25 PM)Elcarch Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 03:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Your assumptions are based on a theology I do not share.

You were the one who said those things, are you now backing down from your claim that the Bible is infallible?

(20-12-2011 03:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, you were there? You saw that it didn't work? Yeah, scientifically it makes ZERO sense, but we're dealing with a supernatural belief within a theistic discussion.

Anyway, my belief is that God gave these instructions to the Jews so that they would follow in faith and God would reward them.

That isn't really how science works, is it?

First, you ought to prove that the event in question even took place to begin with, or else it's not reasonable to believe it did, and hence there is no reason to believe god, if he were proven to exist, ever gave such an instruction to the jews.

Second, you ought to prove that such a clearly bogus nonsensical thing ever cured leprosy, or there is absolutely no reason whatsoever in the world to believe it did.

I find it quite annoying how some people insist on applying such lax standards of evidence to things they approve of that they would never accept in any other aspect of their lives.

If I tell you the world will end lest you give me all your money, you'd think me daft, but when an old book containing countless historical accounts the veracity of which has never been established tells you to do something, you do it without question, just because it is YOUR book.

Edit: You mustn't take this as any kind of attack, it's just a questioning of your arguments, which I view as flawed. I consider pointing out holes in someone's reasoning as a sign of respect, and an acknowledgement of intellectual equality.

1) My belief in the infallibility of the Bible isn't relevant to your questions. My interpretation of theology is.

2) I don't consider it an attack, but you're asserting things about my beliefs that aren't true. Also, this thread isn't about you pointing out holes in my beliefs and trying to debunk what I say. This thread is about a theist answering questions.

3) It's annoying when an atheist enters into a theistic discussion and won't acknowledge or accept beliefs explained according to the belief system.

I explained the "why" of the leprosy ritual (which was the question) according to theology. You proceeded to disregard the theology and try to argue from an non-believing point of view. I've had plenty of atheistic vs theistic debates, but this isn't one of them; and I don't need to answer the questions to coincide with an atheistic point of view. Please consider this when addressing my questions, if you don't care, then continue doing what you're doing and I'll just ignore you and continue answering the questions Piet asked.

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20-12-2011, 04:28 PM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(20-12-2011 03:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  1) My belief in the infallibility of the Bible isn't relevant to your questions. My interpretation of theology is.

So, what is your theological position on the great flood that means the Bible is not wrong to state that the flood covered the whole world?

Is it the case that you simply believe the story was exagerrated, and the flood didn't really cover the whole world, just the known world at that time and place?

(20-12-2011 03:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  2) I don't consider it an attack, but you're asserting things about my beliefs that aren't true. Also, this thread isn't about you pointing out holes in my beliefs and trying to debunk what I say. This thread is about a theist answering questions.

Yes, and I'm questioning your beliefs, to which you give answers, IE precisely the point of the thread, non?

You can't expect me to ask questions with the assumption that what you believe is correct, can you?

(20-12-2011 03:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  3) It's annoying when an atheist enters into a theistic discussion and won't acknowledge or accept beliefs explained according to the belief system.

It's annoying when an atheist won't accept your view of the world? Isn't "Not accepting your beliefs" something of a given for an atheist? I mean, if I didn't think you were wrong, then I wouldn't be an atheist, would I?

(20-12-2011 03:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I explained the "why" of the leprosy ritual (which was the question) according to theology. You proceeded to disregard the theology and try to argue from an non-believing point of view. I've had plenty of atheistic vs theistic debates, but this isn't one of them; and I don't need to answer the questions to coincide with an atheistic point of view. Please consider this when addressing my questions, if you don't care, then continue doing what you're doing and I'll just ignore you and continue answering the questions Piet asked.

You are right that the bit about leprosy turned into a great big sidetrack on my part, for which I apologize.

But still, you did not really answer the question, so let's take it back one step, shall we?

Do you believe that the assumed instruction from god supposed to cure leprosy actually allowed the jews to cure leprosy that way?

If so, what leads you to believe that?
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20-12-2011, 04:41 PM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(20-12-2011 04:28 PM)Elcarch Wrote:  So, what is your theological position on the great flood that means the Bible is not wrong to state that the flood covered the whole world?

Is it the case that you simply believe the story was exagerrated, and the flood didn't really cover the whole world, just the known world at that time and place?

Based on the original Hebrew word for earth, and also based on what the Bible says about the Nephilim, I believe that the flood was a local flood; not global.

Quote:Yes, and I'm questioning your beliefs, to which you give answers, IE precisely the point of the thread, non?

No, the questions and answers were the point of this thread. Everything else is gratuitous.

Quote:You can't expect me to ask questions with the assumption that what you believe is correct, can you?

Isn't that the point of the question? Why ask a question if you don't think the one who answers believes what he says? Yes, I expect you to believe that answer is what I think is correct. If not, your intentions weren't to learn but to attack.

Quote:It's annoying when an atheist won't accept your view of the world? Isn't "Not accepting your beliefs" something of a given for an atheist? I mean, if I didn't think you were wrong, then I wouldn't be an atheist, would I?

It's becoming more obvious what your intentions are. These questions aren't to facilitate a theistic vs atheistic debate. Take that elsewhere.

Quote:You are right that the bit about leprosy turned into a great big sidetrack on my part, for which I apologize.

But still, you did not really answer the question, so let's take it back one step, shall we?

Do you believe that the assumed instruction from god supposed to cure leprosy actually allowed the jews to cure leprosy that way?

If so, what leads you to believe that?

As I've said, yes, I believe it. Why? Because of the theology I presented. Why do I believe in the theology? Because I'm a Christian. Why am I a Christian? Because I have faith in the Christian God. Why do I have faith in a Christian God? Because I had a radical conversation.

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20-12-2011, 04:54 PM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(20-12-2011 04:41 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Based on the original Hebrew word for earth, and also based on what the Bible says about the Nephilim, I believe that the flood was a local flood; not global.

That is very interesting. So, you believe that the meaning of the particular piece of text was intended to be that the flood was only local and not global?

Most christians just go with "Those people were ignorant and exagerrated the whole thing". Your explanation makes more sense.

(20-12-2011 04:41 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Isn't that the point of the question? Why ask a question if you don't think the one who answers believes what he says? Yes, I expect you to believe that answer is what I think is correct. If not, your intentions weren't to learn but to attack.

Ah, we are talking about two different things; I'm talking about me believing what you believe, you are talking about me believing that you believe what you believe.

It's just a misunderstanding. I see your point now.

I do think your belief is sincere.

(20-12-2011 04:41 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  As I've said, yes, I believe it. Why? Because of the theology I presented. Why do I believe in the theology? Because I'm a Christian. Why am I a Christian? Because I have faith in the Christian God. Why do I have faith in a Christian God? Because I had a radical conversation.

Very efficient of you, I must say; we got rid of all the fluff.

What did that radical conversation entail? That seems to be the most relevant one of all the questions.
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20-12-2011, 05:00 PM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
From this thread and this thread.

Evidence for me being elect:

Growing up, I was always embarrassed of Christianity and whenever my parents talked about Jesus. I thought church was silly, and I found the stories nothing more than fantasy.

I finally accepted agnosticism in college as my official belief, and I began to rip Christianity apart with the use of logic and rationality. I would combat Christians on the Internet via forums and use the aforementioned tactics against them to make them look like fools. I was good at it.

Driving home from work one day, my life changed. My heart was opened to a higher power; even though I didn't know whom. I'll try my best to explain this: I found myself suddenly and sincerely praying and listening to this higher power for guidance. This was wholly strange to me because up until that moment I didn't believe in a God that I could talk to.

My beliefs so drastically changed than I began to get angry with myself. I didn't understand how I could rationally accept that there was a higher power that I could converse with. It wasn't logical. Also, I never wanted to talk to a higher power, and I didn't understand how I was doing it if I didn't choose to. My knowledge of religion pre-empted the idea that I had to choose it.

The higher power led me to read and study the Bible. This was the first time that I’ve ever actually done it. It was at this time that I realized that the higher power I was talking to was the Christian God; however, I still didn’t understand why I didn’t get a choice. As my studying intensified, I began to learn about election. And then, it made sense. I realized that then reason I didn’t have a choice is because I was never planned to have a choice.

I knew that I was elect because I learned that those who are elect can hear the will of God and those that aren’t cannot even understand it.

So, that’s my evidence. I guess the most concrete part of it is the fact that my beliefs radically changed and became cemented by no choice of my own.

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20-12-2011, 06:50 PM
RE: Questions for the Christian believer
(20-12-2011 05:00 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Evidence for me being elect:

So, that’s my evidence. I guess the most concrete part of it is the fact that my beliefs radically changed and became cemented by no choice of my own.

My question would be: why out of billions of people across the globe do you think you were "chosen"? Do you think you were "special" or could it have been just been your own head and your mind was, at that stage in your life, very susceptible to your own thoughts.

To my way of reason, logic and rationality, it would not make any sense if a deity selected people with whom to share itself either in a calculated or ad hoc manner. But as Christians are always saying, their god works in mysterious ways. But then that is most likely an excuse for the strange things that Christians attribute to their god.

I think it's rather sad that it was not a "choice of my own" . To me, part of being a human being is that there is always a choice to be made and it's part of growing and maturing that we can make choices. If we are not free to make choices for ourselves we become rather stunted and shallow and limit ourselves.

To me, a god/gods or religion are within one's own mind, and although not real in the sense of being a reality, they become real in the mind of someone searching for meaning either in their life or in their death.

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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