Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
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01-09-2010, 11:00 AM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(01-09-2010 06:05 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  I had some questions for all of you. It seems like a good number of you became atheist after being raised (for lack of a better term) religious. What was it that made you change your mind?

I was raised Roman Catholic, but I never really believed. I was just going through the motions. Finally, about four years ago, I realized that I was an atheist, and had been for all my life. I had never believed. Never saw the reason why I would, really.

Quote:Not being able to totally prove there is a God?

Not really. Being unable to find any evidence of a god whatsoever, for me. I never saw anything which would indicate to me that there is a magical sky daddy watching us.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-09-2010, 11:18 AM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2010 11:26 AM by Kikko.)
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Quote:Not everything abut God makes sense to me, but how could it? He defies human understanding! To your point, He didn't change his mind. He knew what was going to happen. To explain briefly, God is perfect, holy, nothing but light. There is no evil or darkness in him. He cannot be associated with dark, evil and sin because of his nature. When sin was introduced into the world, his justice demanded death. But because of His love, he spared his creation from the penalty of sin through the sacrifice of animals, and ultimately His Son, God himself. People often complain that God is not loving, but they forget that he is perfectly just. If he went back on his word, he'd ba a liar.
God cant be associated with dark, evil and sin because of his nature? What do you mean by his nature? He spared his creation from the penalty of sin thourgh the sacrifice of animals and himself as Jesse? Why did he demand sacrifices when he could just forgive without them (everything is possible for god)?

Quote:Untrue. The Gospel of John, John's letters, and Revelation were all written by Jesus' disciple John "The one Jesus loved". Peter, Jesus' best friend is believed to have advised Mark on his Gospel.
''The one Jesus loved''? Do the other 3 gospels say that John was the one Jesus loved? How can we expect the John of Patmos to be the apostle John? The writer of the gospel of Mark is anonymous. Why is Peter believed to have helped with the gospel of Mark?
I might have been wrong about the new testament writers never seeing Jesus, I read about it somewhere but now I cant find the source... Ill be reading aboot it later.

I expect you believe in hell. Why does god send people there?

So atrocities are right when god theyre accepted by god, because god doesnt have the same standards we do?

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
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01-09-2010, 11:18 AM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(01-09-2010 10:27 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:Jesus' received punishment was infinitely smaller than even one person's eternity in hell--let alone everyone who has ever existed
I know this is just one example of perhaps tens or hundreds of similar ones you may have, but I felt particularly compelled to address this one. I wholeheartedly diasgree with this conclusion. Scripture tells us that everything was created through and by Jesus (that part of the Trinity), so Jesus was fully God before he abdicated his throne to become human here on earth. Imagine giving up your godliness to become a human! And for eternity too. That too me is a huge sacrifice, comfortably matching and exceeding the punishment of an eternity in hell.

Your understanding of the Trinity seems at odds with what I was taught. God, jesus, and the holy spirit are supposed to be one and the same (the 'mystery' of the trinity!), so god didn't give up anything to become jesus. Jesus was only a doppelganger for god! Hence, your imagined suffering experienced by this infinitely powerful being has no factual or logical basis, even in the scriptures. In fact, when jesus prayed to the father, he was actually talking to himself - an interesting issue on its own.

(01-09-2010 10:27 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:If God is all powerful, why aren't we already in heaven?
You quote logic, but I can't see the logic in questioning why an authority figure would do one thing over another. It's His will? He wanted his children to be prepared for the awesomeness of heaven? I think my main answer would be, thank God he gives me a choice to love him and go to heaven, rather than making me a puppet that is programmed to love Him and predestined to go to heaven without any input from me.

So we're not allowed to ask questions of the deity? Why not? Are we being naughty when we ask questions? Oh yes, I remember now ... Doubting Thomas and all that. Personally, I find it quite reasonable to ask why an all-powerful deity would need our belief and praise. Do you believe that your deity is all-knowing? If so, in combination with his putative omnipotence, where is a place in there for choice? It can be argued that your deity knew precisely what my choice would be, and in fact, created me apparently for the specific purpose of sending me to eternal torment! But he loves me!! Rubbish!!

(01-09-2010 10:27 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:If God is all powerful, how did Satan rebel in the first place?
Again, choice. He gave us a choice out of love.

So your deity created this angel, Satan, expressly to give us a non-existent choice (see above) between his good (which includes rape, incest, murder, slavery, wanton destruction, infanticide, self-mutilation, etc.) and Satan's evil? But he loves us!!

(01-09-2010 10:27 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:If God is all knowing, then he knows my beliefs before I do, so conversion is impossible
I do not see any logic flaws here. Just because God knows what you will do or think does not mean it is still not your decision. And you won't know what he knows until it actually happens! Or did I misunderstand you?

So you're willing to accept that your deity knows what my choice will be? Can you also accept that your deity must have known that when I was created, and therefore created me specifically to make THAT choice? If so, then your deity also knew that I was going to spend the rest of eternity in pain and torment for making that choice. But he loves us!! Balderdash!!

(01-09-2010 10:27 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:If God is all present, how did he stand by and watch so many of his chosen people die in Germany?
This is a common question that I ask myself often as well. "Why does God let bad things happen?" My reasoning is that a) again, he let's us decide what to do. We are not pre-programmed, and thus as humans will make mistakes. b) I will not presume I know know God's reasons for anything He does unless He tells me, but many times he let's His chosen people be conquered by the enemy because they have fallen away from Him. Heck, he made them roam the desert for 40 years because they did not trust Him when He told them to enter the promised land the first time. c) just whosestandard are you using when determining what is acceptable punishment or discipline? When talking about things that God does, we should be using His standard. We might never know how the Holocaust played into His plan. And please do not interpret this as my approval of what happened, I just don't know the big picture.

This whole argument is nothing more than the standard monotheist chant: "God works in mysterious ways and it's not for us to understand." You're letting god off the hook for the violence and apparent evil he's created because you have faith that in his 'mysterious' plan, this is all for the good. Except for the people who suffered and died in all this violence ... oh yeah, if they accepted god in their life (which denomination?), some of them get to go to heaven and sit by his side, praising him (sounds pretty boring, actually - at least the muslims get 77 virgins for martyrdom!!) for all eternity. Only jews in the holocaust who accepted jesus as their lord and savior get this putative benefit, though. The rest of them spend eternity in pain and suffering, as thanks for their role in god's mysterious plan. And there's only scriptures to validate any of this apparently mythical nonsense. We have to buy into this rubbish on faith only!!

(01-09-2010 10:27 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:So God is not all-knowing because he changed his mind and he enjoys pain. Does that make sense to you?
Not everything abut God makes sense to me, but how could it? He defies human understanding! To your point, He didn't change his mind. He knew what was going to happen. To explain briefly, God is perfect, holy, nothing but light. There is no evil or darkness in him. He cannot be associated with dark, evil and sin because of his nature. When sin was introduced into the world, his justice demanded death. But because of His love, he spared his creation from the penalty of sin through the sacrifice of animals, and ultimately His Son, God himself. People often complain that God is not loving, but they forget that he is perfectly just. If he went back on his word, he'd ba a liar.

Yadda-yadda-yadda. Your deity has lied many times - for example, he's indicated that he will answer our prayers. But this statement has been tested many times and there is NO EVIDENCE that prayers have ANY effect on events. Not only is your deity a liar, he's a sadistic, narcissistic, psychotic.

Why is it necessary for god's plan to be so mysterious? Why can't it make sense?

(01-09-2010 10:27 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:And what makes you think Jesus was a historical person and that the biblical stories about him are exactly as things happened, even though none of the writers of the new testament never saw Jesus.
Untrue. The Gospel of John, John's letters, and Revelation were all written by Jesus' disciple John "The one Jesus loved". Peter, Jesus' best friend is believed to have advised Mark on his Gospel.

I suggest you explore http://jesusneverexisted.com/ and get back to me on this 'argument', in which you've not offered a single shred of credible evidence to back up your claims. Besides, I thought the real author of the bible was god himself, operating through human ghostwriters.

(01-09-2010 10:27 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:Jesus doesn't seem to state anywhere that his sacrifice was going to stop some parts of the Law from being followed. I don't have the verse handy, but I believe he stated "not one letter of the Law shall pass away." So how can you state that some of the Law doesn't need to be followed anymore
That's in His sermon on the mount. I am quite familiar with that passage. Matthew 5:18. Keep reading, and you will see that Jesus qualifies this with "until everything is accomplished". Fast forward to His crucifixion. "It is finished" (John 19:30). His death fulfilled the Law and brought on the New Covenant. That's why his followers are not Jews, but Christians.

Cherry-picking the scriptures is an old, tiresome theist trick. You find all sorts of contradictions in the bible which can't be ignored just because it's convenient for your belief system. There are several new testament passages that make it clear that ALL of the old testament's fire and brimstone were still in effect, so far as jesus was concerned. And of course, jesus and god are one and the same, so how could he negate his own laws and requirements without suffering from sort of split personality disorder?

(01-09-2010 10:27 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:How do you determine which parts of the Law should still be kept since it doesn't appear that God or Jesus gave any criteria for this decision?
Good question! I can answer that 2 ways. Firstly, Jesus does give some guidance. He told one man to follow the Commandments, but the greatest commandment was to love. Secondly, the answer to that comes with study, prayer, and obedience. Just like I can't bench press 400 pounds right now, if I trained every day, ate right, got plenty of sleep, and kept at it, eventually I would be able to. Similarly, you can't expect to meet a girl (or guy) and know everything about her/him and want to marry her/him in the first 5 minutes. That's why God above all wants us to know Him, so we can love Him more. I hope I will learn more each day about what Gods wants from me. Keep in mind, though, that God isn;t asking me to be a know-it-all. He wants me to believe in Him. Big difference there. But if I truly beilieve in Him, then I will want to learn more and do my best to be obedient to him.

One would think that with 2000 years of study, we ought to be rather closer to an answer to this than we were at the time the scriptures were written. Oddly enough, god evidently is still working in his old, mysterious ways.
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01-09-2010, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2010 11:27 AM by ebilekittae.)
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Quote:I know this is just one example of perhaps tens or hundreds of similar ones you may have, but I felt particularly compelled to address this one. I wholeheartedly diasgree with this conclusion. Scripture tells us that everything was created through and by Jesus (that part of the Trinity), so Jesus was fully God before he abdicated his throne to become human here on earth. Imagine giving up your godliness to become a human! And for eternity too. That too me is a huge sacrifice, comfortably matching and exceeding the punishment of an eternity in hell.

Indeed, I've come across quite a few and the more I research it seems the more I find. Some of those that have been "discovered" are quite easily refuted I admit, but surprisingly the bulk of them carry actual weight. If you happen to be earnestly seeking and are willing to go out of your way to buy a book or download it to a PC kindle, I suggest getting "The Bible Dilemma".

ANYWAY, that's not what you're concerned with. =P

I see what you're saying, but I don't see how what you're saying is true. Sure he became human, but in no way did he throw off his Godhood. I would dare to say that stating otherwise is blasphemy. The divinity of Jesus is one of the staples of the church's beliefs. And while I would agree that becoming your own wretched creation would be a bummer, he certainly seemed to have a lot of god-likeness in him still to do so many miracles and glorious acts that the world couldn't hold them all if they were written.

The crucifixion and torture beforehand would have hurt like hell, but compared to spreading that pain out over all of eternity on top of being separated from your loved ones... it just doesn't compare. I would take being epically humiliated for one lifetime over that any day. =P

EDIT:

OH! Also! About the fee choice and God's plan thing, this is something to really think about:

Quote:Let’s start with the Christian view of divine purpose first. What does it mean to have divine purpose? It seems to mean that the Christian God created you with a very particular plan in mind. And while you have free will (according to the Christian doctrine) I don’t think you can really go against God’s divine plan. How stupid a plan would it be if you can just do whatever you want? Think about it this way, we live in an interconnected society. So if God has a divine plan for you and everyone else, it would stand to reason that his plan for them is at least in part dependant on his plan for you. So if you would or could go against God’s divine plan, then you would really be messing up God’s divine plan for everyone else too. That basically means that if God were to have a divine plan, it would have to be carried out one hundred percent by everyone. That means no free will when it comes to following God’s divine plan.

Take care, Barley! =)

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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01-09-2010, 11:53 AM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
TIME OUT!

I just want to stop for a minute and take a pulse of how this discussion is going. Obviously I'm new here so I'm looking for the opinions of the veterans on here on whether this kind of dialogue is typical, or welcomed, or if it's just a big pissing contest and should be killed. I certainly want to avoid the "troll" designation, as that is not my purpose. If you feel this is going nowhere I'll understan, but if you think it's ok I'll be happy to continue.

Thank you all for your opinion on this!

Barley
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01-09-2010, 12:01 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2010 12:05 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(01-09-2010 11:53 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  TIME OUT!

RED CARD!

Oh, wait. What? Sorry. I got confused.

Quote:I just want to stop for a minute and take a pulse of how this discussion is going. Obviously I'm new here so I'm looking for the opinions of the veterans on here on whether this kind of dialogue is typical, or welcomed, or if it's just a big pissing contest and should be killed.

There are always going to be elements of a pissing contest on any discussion in an internet forum. Everyone has a little egoist in them. "My e-dick is bigger than yours" and so on. But I haven't seen it getting out of hand here.

Quote:I certainly want to avoid the "troll" designation, as that is not my purpose. If you feel this is going nowhere I'll understan, but if you think it's ok I'll be happy to continue.

You're not a troll. We know that. I think you're wrong and/or illogical when it comes to a lot of things, but you're not a troll. I don't think you're purposefully trying to be illogical, or to frustrate us just to get a reaction.

What you have to understand about the attitudes of several members here is that we've seen and dealt with these arguments before. It gets tiresome hearing the same old claptrap again and again, especially when we've proven it wrong before. You may not think that it's been proven wrong, or even seen the rebuttals - I don't know if you've ever discussed stuff like this before - and I have the patience of a brick, so I've got no problem with going over it with you. You may have to be prepared for things to get a little heated from the others, though. They're not really angry, just frustrated. I think they've earned it, so cut them a little slack, mmkay?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-09-2010, 01:29 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
I agree Unbeliever ... it is indeed tiresome to respond to the same old illogical points. Despite my frustration with this and my sometimes sarcastic responses, I'm not angry. Not at all. I took the time to address things posted point-by-point in order to explain clearly what I think is wrong about the responses. Should BarleyMcFlexo truly want to engage in a discussion about atheism and theism, please let it be one using logic and evidence, without recourse to talking points based only on his beliefs and the 'holy' scriptures. Otherwise, this thread WILL be just a waste of bandwidth.
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01-09-2010, 01:32 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(31-08-2010 03:38 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  The following questions were asked to me in an old thread:

There is virtually no mathmetical possibility that all the prophecies in the Bible that have come true could happen by chance. Take prophecies about Jesus' birth. There are upwards of 70 of them. All made and recorded before he was born. The chances that one man would fulfill just 8 of them is the same as picking the one gold coin out of a pile of silver coins stacked 3 feet deep across the whole state of Texas, in one try.

WOW! I will certainly not be your sparing partner in this debate as there are many others here much more passionette, and well versed than I, but this comment is just silly. The person's who wrote the Bible (two roads diverge here I know because you think God wrote it) had all 70+ prophecies right in front of them, they had grown up learning these prophesies so it was easy as pie to create a life for Jesus which "fulfilled" them. If you tell me what make, model, and color you want you shouldn't be shocked when I show up with JUST WHAT YOU WANTED! It's a miracle, no you told me. In fact the whole virgin birth story was created later to conform with prophecy. Sorry I commend your effort here in the face of stiff opposition, but come on!

EDIT: oops I responded after only reading page 1 not realizing there were 2 more pages. I'm sure my point has already been made much more eloquently. I was a little quick with the respond button.
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01-09-2010, 01:33 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
If I may throw my hat into this argument?

I suppose this may be like trying to play a broken drum for some of you but I have some questions for our religious friend, these are very basic questions I tend to default to at the beginning of a discussion with a member of the faith.

what do you believe makes it rain?

what is your personal opinion of slavery and rape?

what is your personal opinion on the crusades?

how much of the bible have you read? and what do you think of the atrocities?

finally this is a question I'm sure you're quite tired of hearing but can you give me any rational evidence to the existence of God?

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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01-09-2010, 01:57 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
'A pissing contest' Smile I had to check the urban dictionary, sounds so funny.

Im incredibly bad at internet arguing, I'll leave this thread untill I actually have something good to say.

Just the last question I want to ask.

Are you a fundamentalist? I ask because you told us you believe in a young earth, which sounds kinda... not noticing the evidence. I dont think any kind of dating (except for the tree dating thing) can be a 100% accurate, but can be very close. The possible error percents are very low, so saying that modern dating methods are not a 100% accurate doesnt mean that they would give a completely wrong result, for example, something is dated to be a 100million years old, but the dating method has an error percent of 1%, which means that the something is about 99-101million years old.

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
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