Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
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01-09-2010, 02:06 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Quote:If God is all powerful, how did Satan rebel in the first place?

Again, choice. He gave us a choice out of love.

I don't understand why God would give us the choice "out of love" and then make a world that hides his existence, write or inspire a book that is less clear than Mississippi mud and then send us to hell if we don't believe in him.
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01-09-2010, 02:59 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(01-09-2010 02:06 PM)No J. Wrote:  
Quote:If God is all powerful, how did Satan rebel in the first place?

Again, choice. He gave us a choice out of love.

I don't understand why God would give us the choice "out of love" and then make a world that hides his existence, write or inspire a book that is less clear than Mississippi mud and then send us to hell if we don't believe in him.

No J., let's break this down. Just for clarity sake, I'm not ridiculing or anything Smile

1) Choice. Do you understand and agree with the concept that it is better for you to have a choice to do something rather than being forced to?

2) "A world that hides his existence". I don't agree with that statement. Although you and others might not agree with my reasons, since they are based on the fact that God exists and I'm learning I can't use that reasoning here. So, personally, I see the Hand of God everywhere. The beautiful complexity of the Universe, the rainbow he left for us, the fact that he came down to earth, and left his word, and the love and faithfulness he has shown me in my life. But disregard all that. I believe that you should be happy that he has not stood directly in front of you for you to see. His pure power and holiness would instantly vaporize you, me, and the world itself. Again, it's what I believe based on what I know about God and His nature. I don't expect you to believe this.

3) "Unclear book" - I will assume you have read to Bible and not just taken for granted what Atheists or Christians tell you about it. What is unclear about it to you? I'd be happy to try to help you understand it. If I can't help and you are truly wishing to understand it better, I promise to help find the answers you are looking for Smile

4) "Hell if you don't believe" - Do you believe in justice? Do you believe that if I murder someone I should go to jail? Or a less morbid example: do you believe you should go to jail if you cheat on your taxes? Even if you think income taxes are illegal/unconstitutional? I hope and would expect that you would say "yes" to these questions. You know the law, you know the consequence, then why complain about the consequence? Are you a parent? Do you love your children? Should they be disciplined if they do something wrong? Do you see where I am going with this? If God is perfect, as I believe he is, then he must be perfectly just. He doesn't delight in sending anyone to hell. He wants a relationship with you!
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01-09-2010, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2010 03:43 PM by ebilekittae.)
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Please forgive me responding to a comment not made to me, but this one point in particular struck me with importance:

Quote:4) "Hell if you don't believe" - Do you believe in justice? Do you believe that if I murder someone I should go to jail? Or a less morbid example: do you believe you should go to jail if you cheat on your taxes? Even if you think income taxes are illegal/unconstitutional? I hope and would expect that you would say "yes" to these questions. You know the law, you know the consequence, then why complain about the consequence? Are you a parent? Do you love your children? Should they be disciplined if they do something wrong? Do you see where I am going with this? If God is perfect, as I believe he is, then he must be perfectly just. He doesn't delight in sending anyone to hell. He wants a relationship with you!

First and foremost, I want to make it clear that I'm not a parent and odds are I'll never become one. This might have some weight in my argument for some people, so I figured I'd be honest about it.

But that aside, I believe I was raised well by my parents, including a father that was harsh but loving in his discipline, so I understand what you're getting at here. But there is a major difference.

I cannot think of a single circumstance in which I could subscribe myself into that would make my parents decide to force me to writhe in pain, separate from all love and empathy and them for all of eternity. Sure, they disciplined me. I was spanked as a child and I don't hold grudges against my parents for that--it was an act of discipline and I think I turned out pretty alright, and it never got abusive (depending on how lenient you are with the term "abuse").

But thinking that someone, my dad for example, would even think about threatening me with "I love you, son, but if you don't love me back I'm going to make you regret it for all of eternity while you're forever rotting in insatiable flame--I gave you chances," is beyond terrifying or beyond the highest level of "bizarre". It's completely contradictory, and no matter how profusely I hated my dad or rebelled against him or spat in his face (hypothetically, of course--I love my dad), I know that he would never even think about wishing that on me, let alone do it had he the power. And he's a mortal sinner.

Compound this with the fact that there are those of us who doubt he even exists and God won't use his omnipotence nor omnipresence to show us that we're missing it and it shows a very unloving portrait. My brother often makes the claim "If people doubted the president exists, would you expect him to just come on over and show himself to you?" This is an obvious fallacy--God supposedly loves me infinitely more times than the President ever could--not to mention the facts that God exists outside of time, is supposed to be already right here and it's a matter of the life or death of my mortal soul.

I think if he were real and as compassionate as he's credited, he would at least do me the courtesy of saving me from eternal damnation.

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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01-09-2010, 03:30 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Sorry about the style here. I haven't figured out all the editting stuff yet.

BM - Do you believe in justice?

No J. - Justice is a man made ideal. It comes from our need to be accepted by our piers and be treated as such.

BM - What is unclear about it to you? I'd be happy to try to help you understand it. If I can't help and you are truly wishing to understand it better, I promise to help find the answers you are looking for.

No J. - I understand what the bible says. That is why it is unclear. To see it as a guide you have to decide in advance what it means and then cherry pick the stuff that supports your belief while ignoring what contradicts your belief.

BM - "A world that hides his existence". I don't agree with that statement.

No J. - That is because you are looking through god colored glasses. This means that all possibilities include your god. You have not and are still not looking at the world though atheist, muslim, buddist, agnostic wicca or any other kind of glasses. These glasses work like filters and prevent you from seeing all but what you want to see.

I grew up with god colored glasses. fortunately I also had a need to "know." Without this need to know I may not have actually had a chance to take the glasses off and look at the world with another pair. I have seen the world with two pairs of glasses and man does it look better from here.

Now when you look at someone in a different religion and you know they are wrong, remember that they and I see christians the way you are seeing them.

I dare you change glasses for one month. See the world without god.

I did.

You came here claiming that you want to understand us, but that won't happen.
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01-09-2010, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2010 03:45 PM by UnderTheMicroscope.)
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Quote:I think if he were real and as compassionate as he's credited, he would at least do me the courtesy of saving me from eternal damnation.

I agree, there is a really big hole in the theistic belief of divine punishment, if god(s) supposedly love to an infinitude than there is no way they could do that to us, especially if you're considering a being that has existed for billions of trillions of years that has been thinking and knows ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING. This god depicted in the bible is an immature tyrant that has been known in the bible to strike down his own followers for acts of kindness or innocent mistakes, someone who silences those who have even the slightest deviation in thought from his followers.

and let me tell you something, that doesn't sound like giving free will to decide for ourselves, that looks more like letting us make a choice to see how easily he could break us.

EDIT:
upon further examination of your post I am glad you used the justice system as an analogy.

lets imagine you are put in a maximum security prison for the rest of your life -assuming you are between the age of 20-30 and you live to 100- you are put into solitary confinement for 8 hours a day then beat on by the guards, plus all the abuse from fellow inmates and seeing the horrors that go on in torturing high security prisons. THAT is the closest thing to hell on earth. Some have lived that.

So let me add something to it, the only person witnessing your crime is your spouse, they love you more than anyone on the planet ever could, will they turn you in?!
I'd say that 5 times out of 10 the spouse will not turn you in and god supposedly loves us to an infinite degree.
get my point?

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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01-09-2010, 03:37 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Sorry. Ineed to correct an editing goof from above post..

You came here claiming that you want to understand us, but that won't happen.

Was supposed be altered to have been the ending, but while I was writing the fleshing out of the post improved, then I forgot that blurb on the bottom.

You came here claiming that you want to understand us, but that won't happen as long as you can't see the universe without god as its center.
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01-09-2010, 03:43 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Okay Barley. This thread exploded while I was asleep (i'm in Korea, so my clock is significantly off from yours b/c I am 16 hours ahead of California). I wasn't able to clarify some of my earlier questions which were made while I was half-asleep. I am going to address your points as best I can here. Please understand that I am neither philosopher or scientist, I am merely a skeptic of most things, and a non-believer when it comes to religion (of any sort)

(01-09-2010 02:59 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  1) Choice. Do you understand and agree with the concept that it is better for you to have a choice to do something rather than being forced to?

Of course. We all do. But that is the problem with the bible. If God is all knowing, and he knows yuor choice before you make it, then you are not making the choice, but instead following a pre-ordained path. This is known as predestination and while you may feel you have a choice, the all knowing aspect of God means that is not possible. If God is all knowing and knows that I am going to murder someone but fails to step in, then we can infer that he didn't because he knew of the outcome. We can also infer that because God knew it was going to happen that it wasn't a choice at all, and I was following "his will". I have a problem with that. Especially in modern South Africa and in recent history. that means that every act of genocide in recent memory was followign God's will. I don't see how you can speak of choices when God already knows the outcome. That puts life on rails. You may see the twists and turns coming, but you are merely along for the ride.

(01-09-2010 02:59 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  2) "A world that hides his existence". I don't agree with that statement. Although you and others might not agree with my reasons, since they are based on the fact that God exists and I'm learning I can't use that reasoning here. So, personally, I see the Hand of God everywhere. The beautiful complexity of the Universe, the rainbow he left for us, the fact that he came down to earth, and left his word, and the love and faithfulness he has shown me in my life. But disregard all that. I believe that you should be happy that he has not stood directly in front of you for you to see. His pure power and holiness would instantly vaporize you, me, and the world itself. Again, it's what I believe based on what I know about God and His nature. I don't expect you to believe this.

Of course you wouldn't agree with that. I'm not going to call you deluded Others here will, but I will not. I will say, however, that I find no evidence for god's existence. Every time scientific inquiry and reason find a logical explanation for something, God's "presence" in the material world becomes smaller and smaller. Four thousand years ago, God was the only explanation for almost everything. now, he is the only logical explanation for almost nothing. If you follow the decline of the church's power in society (Ritual sacrifice to theocracies to modern day society), you will find that it is in an inverse proportion to the amount of knowledge we have gained both scientifically and philosophically. And as far as God staying hidden because his pure power and holiness would vaporize us, I simply can't believe that. I am sorry.

(01-09-2010 02:59 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  3) "Unclear book" - I will assume you have read to Bible and not just taken for granted what Atheists or Christians tell you about it. What is unclear about it to you? I'd be happy to try to help you understand it. If I can't help and you are truly wishing to understand it better, I promise to help find the answers you are looking for Smile

I am going to leave this alone, and instead refer you to resources that are much better qtuipped to deal with this one than I. Starting from this site, "the Thinking Atheist", I would refer you to the "video" section and the "Refuting the Bible" section. Under the second portion you will find biblical condradictions and a section on atrocities. All very nicely laid out. Additionally, i will refer you to a very well researched site. I have been reading it for a year now and have not gotten through it all. please go to http://www.usbible.com/usbible/ There are literally hundreds of links and articles there that address problems with the Bible.

(01-09-2010 02:59 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  4) "Hell if you don't believe" - Do you believe in justice? Do you believe that if I murder someone I should go to jail? Or a less morbid example: do you believe you should go to jail if you cheat on your taxes? Even if you think income taxes are illegal/unconstitutional? I hope and would expect that you would say "yes" to these questions. You know the law, you know the consequence, then why complain about the consequence? Are you a parent? Do you love your children? Should they be disciplined if they do something wrong? Do you see where I am going with this? If God is perfect, as I believe he is, then he must be perfectly just. He doesn't delight in sending anyone to hell. He wants a relationship with you!

He wants a relationship with you. He doesn't delight in sending anyone to hell. These don't mesh with the Christian God. I'm sorry, but they don't. God created hell. he created Satan and by default, becaus of predestination, he created sin.

And our laws (the laws of man) are open to interpretation. We, at least in the United States, realize that there are times and things in the law that need amending or that there are special situations which require a bending of the law. Murder in self-defense is a perfect example. But there is no flexibility in God's law. And if he wants a relationship with you, let me ask you a simple question. If God wanted a relationship with all of his people, why did he send Moses to slaughter thousands upon thousands (just one page after 'Thou shall not kill'), when all he had to do was reveal himself to the people instead of slaughtering them? If he is as powerful as everyone says, they would have converted immediately. There would have been no need for slaughter.
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01-09-2010, 03:49 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(01-09-2010 02:59 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  2) "A world that hides his existence". I don't agree with that statement. Although you and others might not agree with my reasons, since they are based on the fact that God exists and I'm learning I can't use that reasoning here. So, personally, I see the Hand of God everywhere. The beautiful complexity of the Universe, the rainbow he left for us, the fact that he came down to earth, and left his word, and the love and faithfulness he has shown me in my life. But disregard all that. I believe that you should be happy that he has not stood directly in front of you for you to see. His pure power and holiness would instantly vaporize you, me, and the world itself. Again, it's what I believe based on what I know about God and His nature. I don't expect you to believe this.


4) "Hell if you don't believe" - Do you believe in justice? Do you believe that if I murder someone I should go to jail? Or a less morbid example: do you believe you should go to jail if you cheat on your taxes? Even if you think income taxes are illegal/unconstitutional? I hope and would expect that you would say "yes" to these questions. You know the law, you know the consequence, then why complain about the consequence? Are you a parent? Do you love your children? Should they be disciplined if they do something wrong? Do you see where I am going with this? If God is perfect, as I believe he is, then he must be perfectly just. He doesn't delight in sending anyone to hell. He wants a relationship with you!

Question.... Do you believe that I am going to hell?

Again, you have no definitive proof that God was responsible for the complexity of the universe. God is one of many possibilities. He is also one of the least likely. How do you know that all this is the result of God? If you were never told as a child about the concept of God, would you attribute God to all these things? If the idea of God is so universal, shouldn't it be self-evident? If you were born in India instead of where you are now, you would believe that various polytheistic deities were responsible for the universe. Hinduism predates Christianity by thousands of years. How could they have been wrong that whole time? How can different people believe in different gods?
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01-09-2010, 03:51 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
I would like to stop the conversation here for a moment.

Let's take a breath. I would like to thank Barley for having the courage to stay in this thread as the lone Christian defending his beliefs against a group of Atheists. And doing it without malice or insult.

Though we may all disagree with his views and he with ours, he has been more than willing to discuss openly and honestly while admitting in some cases that he simply doesn't know.

If I were Barley, I would have walked away by now.

And Barley, if you're not a guy, sorry to assume that you are. I just got that feeling from the posts.
(01-09-2010 03:49 PM)TruthAddict Wrote:  Question.... Do you believe that I am going to hell?

I believe I'm going to Hell.

It's in Michigan. I plan on visiting it to get a picture of me standing next to a sign saying "now leaving Hell"
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01-09-2010, 03:57 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(01-09-2010 03:51 PM)Soldieringon Wrote:  I would like to stop the conversation here for a moment.

Let's take a breath. I would like to thank Barley for having the courage to stay in this thread as the lone Christian defending his beliefs against a group of Atheists. And doing it without malice or insult.

Though we may all disagree with his views and he with ours, he has been more than willing to discuss openly and honestly while admitting in some cases that he simply doesn't know.

If I were Barley, I would have walked away by now.

And Barley, if you're not a guy, sorry to assume that you are. I just got that feeling from the posts.

agreed, I applaud him despite his beliefs, he is truly brave and in fact has inspired me to go outside my own comfort zone. I am going to make a list of topics points against god, write all my evidence and attempt to find a christian priest to debate with peacefully.
Granted from personal experience I doubt I will have much luck, but its worth a try.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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