Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
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01-09-2010, 03:59 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2010 04:07 PM by ebilekittae.)
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Quote:If God is all knowing and knows that I am going to murder someone but fails to step in, then we can infer that he didn't because he knew of the outcome.

I would also like to point out, regarding this, something taught to me in my church apologetics/evangelism class. It's the term Depraved Indifference, a legal term used to define the criminal act of not stopping a tragedy from happening (a child drowning in a pool, for example) if you were able. It's a very serious offense, and was taught to me in the context of saving souls, but was never ever flipped to reflect God's own personal indifference to the lives of his most precious creation. Why are we held more accountable than God? It seems like a problem to me.

Thanks again for taking the time to read our perspective. I hope that we all grow from this. =)

EDIT:

Quote:I would like to stop the conversation here for a moment.

Let's take a breath. I would like to thank Barley for having the courage to stay in this thread as the lone Christian defending his beliefs against a group of Atheists. And doing it without malice or insult.

Though we may all disagree with his views and he with ours, he has been more than willing to discuss openly and honestly while admitting in some cases that he simply doesn't know.

If I were Barley, I would have walked away by now.

And Barley, if you're not a guy, sorry to assume that you are. I just got that feeling from the posts.

I completely agree! Thanks for sticking with us, Barley! You've been far more than civil and patient (I've marvelled more than once at the prospect of "...Wow, those are a lot of lines of text Barley has for reading and rebutting =P"). I know you're probably busy and I know this thread itself might contribute much to that busy nature, but I would like to make sure that you know you're welcome to post on other threads, too, like the movie boards and game boards and stuff, or whatever. =D

Cheers, dood!

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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01-09-2010, 04:04 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(01-09-2010 02:59 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  Just for clarity sake, I'm not ridiculing or anything Smile

Neither are we. I second (or third, or fourth, or whatever) Soldieringon's comments. Thanks for keeping it civil throughout this. I've done this on enough sites with enough people to know that it's very, very hard to keep it calm and polite when your beliefs are being challenged.

Quote:1) Choice. Do you understand and agree with the concept that it is better for you to have a choice to do something rather than being forced to?

"Better" by what standard?

In addition, just as an FYI, several members of this site - myself included - do not believe in free will, so it's kind of a moot point from our position.

Quote:2) "A world that hides his existence". I don't agree with that statement. Although you and others might not agree with my reasons, since they are based on the fact that God exists and I'm learning I can't use that reasoning here. So, personally, I see the Hand of God everywhere.

Yeah, well, like you said, we won't find that very convincing. Wink

Personally, I see the same things you do. I just don't see any reason why it needs a god to be that way.

Quote:The beautiful complexity of the Universe

From our point of view, does not require a god.

Quote:the rainbow he left for us

From our point of view, is entirely natural, and not a gift from a deity.

Quote:the fact that he came down to earth, and left his word

From our point of view, this never happened.

Quote:4) "Hell if you don't believe" - Do you believe in justice? Do you believe that if I murder someone I should go to jail? Or a less morbid example: do you believe you should go to jail if you cheat on your taxes? Even if you think income taxes are illegal/unconstitutional? I hope and would expect that you would say "yes" to these questions. You know the law, you know the consequence, then why complain about the consequence?

Because absolutely no act of "evil" - again, from our point of view, morals are not objective (at least, they probably aren't; I've met some weird atheists) - deserves an infinity of suffering. Have you ever heard the phrase "disproportionate response"? This is it taken to eleven. I literally would not wish this on Hitler himself.

No, really. Think about it. Eternity of the worst suffering possible.

Think about that word.

Eternity.

That is not what I call justice.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-09-2010, 04:41 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Quote:Question.... Do you believe that I am going to hell?

Again, you have no definitive proof that God was responsible for the complexity of the universe. God is one of many possibilities. He is also one of the least likely. How do you know that all this is the result of God? If you were never told as a child about the concept of God, would you attribute God to all these things? If the idea of God is so universal, shouldn't it be self-evident? If you were born in India instead of where you are now, you would believe that various polytheistic deities were responsible for the universe. Hinduism predates Christianity by thousands of years. How could they have been wrong that whole time? How can different people believe in different gods?

I don't know you and I am not God, so I have no opinion about whether you are going to hell or not. I don't decide where you are going, so the question is irrelevant. Now, my opinion about salvation in general is: The Bible that I believe in says that you will have eternal life if you believe in Jesus (John 3:16). It defines eternal life as "knowing" God and Jesus (John 17:3). "Knowing" in the biblical sense means "interactive relationship". Jesus warns people that if he does not know you, you are not welcome in his kingdom (Matthew 7:21-23). I laid out the framework for you, now you can figure it out for yourself Smile

sigh...too many questions. I honestly can't keep up. You admitted God is a possibility. I will admit in kind that "No God" is a possibility too. And No J. (I think it was him) was SOOOO right about the "glasses" analogy. The facts are the facts and do not change. The opinions/beliefs are formulated based on your assumptions and filter. I am learning so much about the nature of the atheist glasses, and for that I am thiankful.
more on eternity, based on Unbeliever's last response. Eternal life certainly includes heaven, but also includes life here on earth right now. So if you choose to live apart from God on earth, is it not logical to assume you choose to live apart from Him after you die too? Or do you want it both ways?
Another EDIT: I just read some of the new posts and I want to thank you all. Yes, I am a guy. Yes, I am trying my best to stay civil and respectful. That's why I asked some of you beforehand what kinds of things/comments make your blood boil, to hopefully avoid any flame wars. And that's why I asked mid-thread if we should continue, because I realize I am on "your turf" and don't want you to think all Christians are jerks Wink.

I am learning much about atheism which was an original objective of mine. I also want to help clear up any misconceptions you may have about Christianity. You are certainly entitled to your opinions once you have the facts, but I want to make sure you have the right facts. And sadly, many Christians don't even have the right facts. Yes I might be wrong more than my fair share, but my intentions are honorable?
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01-09-2010, 05:29 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
The road to perdition is purported to be paved with good intentions. Barley, you have indeed been both civil and courageous, to come into the lion's den and mix it up with us. If you come away with anything, I hope it's to understand that much of monotheistic (christian) apologetics and faith-based doctrine is unacceptable here. I have no idea what your motives for staying with us might be, nor do those motives matter in the context of this discussion. You've admitted several times that you realize that certain traditional christian apologetic arguments don't have any credibility here. I admire that.

If you come away with anything, it should be that an atheist is committed to logic and a rational approach to understanding our world that is based on evidence, not faith. That your chosen deity has apparently decided that we don't need any modern demonstrations of his existence (e.g., miracles, etc.) - in fact, he has evidently actively sought to obscure any evidence (ostensibly to cause us to prove our faith) - should give you pause to think. Why create in us the capacity for rational thought (which has many practical applications that we in our society benefit from) and then require us to deny that rationality in order to be 'saved'? If your deity exists, I repeat ... why doesn't he make any sense?
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01-09-2010, 05:52 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(01-09-2010 05:29 PM)2buckchuck Wrote:  If your deity exists, I repeat ... why doesn't he make any sense?

bet you a tenner he says god works in mysterious ways...

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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01-09-2010, 05:53 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
(01-09-2010 04:41 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  more on eternity, based on Unbeliever's last response. Eternal life certainly includes heaven, but also includes life here on earth right now. So if you choose to live apart from God on earth, is it not logical to assume you choose to live apart from Him after you die too?

Merely living apart from him? I could care less. It's the whole LAKE OF FIRE OH GOD MY SKIN IT BURNS bit that's kind of a turn-off.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-09-2010, 05:56 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Wait...

I thought God was everywhere, was he not? How is it logically possible to live "apart" from him? That would require that he either occupy physical space and be located a specific distance from us, or that he has a "heart," which would be an arrogant assumption in the first place. Again, if the earth was an atom, the observable universe would be a sphere roughly 700,000 miles in diameter. Out of that whole space, out of those sextillions of objects, the Earth is the center of attention, and it is immovable, and not only that, God is just like earthlings. Doesn't that seem just a bit improbable to you? I find it much much more likely that man created God in his image.
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01-09-2010, 09:13 PM
 
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
TruthAddict, I don't know if you are being facetious, or if it's a sincere question. I'll put it another way. When I say "live apart" I mean choose to not have a relationship with him. Does that help?
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02-09-2010, 08:28 AM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Quote:It defines eternal life as "knowing" God and Jesus (John 17:3). "Knowing" in the biblical sense means "interactive relationship".
I merely refrained from talking about the story of Sodom, I didnt want to sound like a smartass.
Quote:When I say "live apart" I mean choose to not have a relationship with him. Does that help?
How could someone have a relationship with someone who he/she has never met, talked with, seen and who has never showed his/her existance in any way? I dont think its about choosing to have a relationship with god. For example, I'm not capable of choosing to ahve a relationship with god.

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
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02-09-2010, 05:43 PM
RE: Questions to a Bible-Believing Christian
Barley, are you sure that you are not loosing your faith and jumping in with us as a method of testing the waters to see if atheism is a vaible alternative?
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