Quick Easter questions
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24-06-2017, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2017 11:53 AM by dancefortwo.)
RE: Quick Easter questions
It's very unlikely that anyone put him in a tomb anyway. The Romans believed that the suffering on a cross just wasn't quite enough pain so they let the bodies rot on the crosses to be picked over by buzzards and wild dogs which they believed was part of the crucifixion process as the person's soul was also being tortured. I've seen estimates of between 50 thousand to 100 thousand people they crucified over the 500 years of the republic. I've even seen numbers as high as 500,000 people. If the Romans had allowed people to bury the crucified bodies there should be more family tombs and ossuary boxes with crucified bones in them but in all the archaeology digs around the Jerusalem area and beyond they've only found one.....just one crucified body in an ossuary box. That's it.

If Jesus was crucified he was left there to rot.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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24-06-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Quick Easter questions
(24-06-2017 09:48 AM)thereverent1 Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 06:41 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If he returned from the dead, where is he ?

This is the crux of a major problem that Christians have. Did people who lived prior to the arrival of Jesus have any opportunity to be saved? Noah and the 7 members of his immediate family were allowed to survive the Flood. Didn't God single Noah out because he was a good man? Shouldn't he therefore have been saved? But how could he be saved if he never accepted Jesus as his personal Savior?

To fix this problem Christians invented the idea that after his resurrection Jesus descended into Hell to provide the Good News to the dead. This would mean that at the time of the eventual Last Judgment everyone who ever lived would have had a chance to hear the Good News, and therefore everyone who ever lived would have the opportunity to be saved.

So imagine that you were a pagan who died 300 years before Jesus, and imagine that you had lived a life of crime and depravity. Then when the Last Judgment happens Jesus asks you if you ever believed in him. Why would you say "No"?

To specifically answer the question of "where is he", according to Matthew 17 he was transfigured-- before the very eyes of the Disciples-- and was lifted up into Heaven.

More importantly, what about the people who lived after Jesus, on the other side of the planet?

What about the hundreds of millions of Aztecs/Inca/Mayans and other Native Americans? What about the Chinese, Japanese, and Hindu empires, happily trudging along for centuries before and after Jesus and containing most of the people on earth? What about the Polynesians and Maori, Australian aborigines, and the Hawaiians? What about the Siamese and Bengali, and the myriad other religions, peoples, and empires across Southeast Asia? What about most of southern and eastern Africa? And so on. Most of these peoples would not even remotely have a chance to hear the story of Jesus for centuries, even well over a millennium, after the crucifixion to supposedly save "all the world"?

What kind of insane god would use this method to "save the planet", since it would easily know that there were so many other peoples in the world who would not be reached by that method? Why rely on a single appearance and rely on slow word-of-mouth?

Easy. It wouldn't. But cultists who didn't know those other peoples were there (or didn't think they mattered) would indeed claim that was God's method of revelation/redemption, since that made them the Special Spokespersons of God™.

It's so transparent, from the outside.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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24-06-2017, 11:22 AM
RE: Quick Easter questions
(24-06-2017 11:08 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 09:48 AM)thereverent1 Wrote:  This is the crux of a major problem that Christians have. Did people who lived prior to the arrival of Jesus have any opportunity to be saved? Noah and the 7 members of his immediate family were allowed to survive the Flood. Didn't God single Noah out because he was a good man? Shouldn't he therefore have been saved? But how could he be saved if he never accepted Jesus as his personal Savior?

To fix this problem Christians invented the idea that after his resurrection Jesus descended into Hell to provide the Good News to the dead. This would mean that at the time of the eventual Last Judgment everyone who ever lived would have had a chance to hear the Good News, and therefore everyone who ever lived would have the opportunity to be saved.

So imagine that you were a pagan who died 300 years before Jesus, and imagine that you had lived a life of crime and depravity. Then when the Last Judgment happens Jesus asks you if you ever believed in him. Why would you say "No"?

To specifically answer the question of "where is he", according to Matthew 17 he was transfigured-- before the very eyes of the Disciples-- and was lifted up into Heaven.

More importantly, what about the people who lived after Jesus, on the other side of the planet?

What about the hundreds of millions of Aztecs/Inca/Mayans and other Native Americans? What about the Chinese, Japanese, and Hindu empires, happily trudging along for centuries before and after Jesus and containing most of the people on earth? What about the Polynesians and Maori, Australian aborigines, and the Hawaiians? What about the Siamese and Bengali, and the myriad other religions, peoples, and empires across Southeast Asia? What about most of southern and eastern Africa? And so on. Most of these peoples would not even remotely have a chance to hear the story of Jesus for centuries, even well over a millennium, after the crucifixion to supposedly save "all the world"?

What kind of insane god would use this method to "save the planet", since it would easily know that there were so many other peoples in the world who would not be reached by that method? Why rely on a single appearance and rely on slow word-of-mouth?

Easy. It wouldn't. But cultists who didn't know those other peoples were there (or didn't think they mattered) would indeed claim that was God's method of revelation/redemption, since that made them the Special Spokespersons of God™.

It's so transparent, from the outside.

Also it was kind of "in fashion" back then to claim magical feats. Jesus wasn't the only person at the time doing this (if he existed). Jesus just ended up being the figurehead for one particular movement.

*For anyone interested read "Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire" by Richard Carrier--available online.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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24-06-2017, 03:51 PM
RE: Quick Easter questions
Available here.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/rich...kooks.html

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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24-06-2017, 04:23 PM
RE: Quick Easter questions
(23-06-2017 06:41 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  In the myth of jesus, he's crucified, left for dead on a pole, presumably died, buried in a tomb and then 70 years later, someone writes about his resurrection three days after he presumably died ?
(Hope all of that is semi correct, according to the myth)

My question
If he returned from the dead, where is he ?
People are awaiting his return.
Do they not believe he was resurrected ?
Where is he returning from ?

First off, it is a scientifically absurd story. Nobody dies like the bible intents the reader to believe and then magically survives rigor mortis.

But, ascension stories are not new to Christianity. The Egyptian savior god Horus ascends into heaven to sit at the right hand of his father Osiris under the head God Ra to sit in judgment of the dead.

Certainly people believe Jesus was resurrected, that is the entire point of the religion, for the believer to believe he died to save them. It didn't happen because it is physically and scientifically impossible to survive a death like that as the story implies. But yea, they do believe.

Where is he coming from? Where is Mickey Mouse coming from? Where is Spiderman coming from? Where is Yoda coming from? Imagination. If you want to believe something badly enough you will.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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24-06-2017, 05:14 PM
RE: Quick Easter questions
(24-06-2017 11:08 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  What about the hundreds of millions of Aztecs/Inca/Mayans and other Native Americans?

MORMONISM!

...... those other peoples don't count.
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24-06-2017, 06:05 PM
RE: Quick Easter questions
(24-06-2017 11:08 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  More importantly, what about the people who lived after Jesus, on the other side of the planet?
Even more importantly: how about the 95% of humans who, by evangelical beliefs, die without god year after year after year?

Even by the most lax / generous definitions, only a third of persons currently living are Christians (these would be cultural Christians, basically). Only 17% of those are evangelicals, most of whom, hopefully, an evangelical would presume would go to heaven.

17% of 33% is 5.61% of humanity. Allowing for a few wolves in sheep's clothing, people who commit the Unpardonable Sin, etc., that means only 5% of people living today are "saved". 95% are therefore condemned.

Since 55.3 million people die each year, that's roughly 52 million people who will enter eternal perdition. This year. Next year. The year after.

And this is AFTER 2,000 YEARS of the world responding to Christianity's compelling value proposition.

Not much of a track record, and it certainly doesn't suggest god gives a flying fish fuck about whether people enter eternal bliss with him or not. "God is not willing that any should perish", my ass.

This is as good as it gets, folks.
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24-06-2017, 07:33 PM
RE: Quick Easter questions
(23-06-2017 11:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  In, On The Historicity of Jesus, Richard Carrier points out an oddity. The way jesus freaks tell it there were xtians walking around claiming that their boy was back from the dead and talking to his followers. Yet, the authorities who presumably would be interested in a guy who apparently escaped justice and was still the same threat as he was before evince no interest in finding the body or apprehending him if alive.
For people who were so gung ho to nail the mother fucker up the Sanhedrin seems curiously derelict in the aftermath.

To say nothing of the 500 others who rose with him (in Matthew) and were walking around Jerusalem, (in the zombie invasion). First they interrupt their (supposedly) Passover celebration to execute him, then apparently in Acts Peter has to tell then what they didn't even know they did :

"Acts 4-6

4 The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2 They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. 3 They seized Peter and John and, because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. 4 But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

5 The next day the rulers, the elders and the teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6 Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and others of the high priest’s family. 7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is

“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’[a]
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. 14 But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. 15 So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16 “What are we going to do with these men?” they asked. “Everyone living in Jerusalem knows they have performed a notable sign, and we cannot deny it. 17 But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn them to speak no longer to anyone in this name.”

18 Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! 20 As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

21 After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising God for what had happened. 22 For the man who was miraculously healed was over forty years old.

The Believers Pray
23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:

“‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.[b]’[c]
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly."


So what strikes one first is that a few weeks later, (supposedly) somehow Peter has ALL this highly developed theology figured out. (haha) ....
and secondly, why does he have to tell them what they did ... if they did it. The "Christ" was the messiah, AND he's also talking about "dying for sins" which was a non-Jewish concept, (for a messiah), even though a few weeks earlier they asked Jesus if "at this time art Thou going to return the kingdom to Israel". My how things change. Obviously it's all made up. *As if* Peter would "sass" the High Priest and authorities. LOL.


but ....

Easter is for the Bunny. He comes to my house every year. Last Easter, there were quite a few bunnies out and about. We hopped out into San Diego, (about 11 Easter bunnies) and hopped into a few bars, and out in downtown SD. The cops stopped us, and we thought "oh oh", said "what did we do" ... and they said "Nothing, we just want a picture with you all....our wives and kids will never believe this". Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-06-2017, 01:47 AM
RE: Quick Easter questions
(24-06-2017 08:49 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ... "Why? What'd you guys do?" ...

I am SO glad I wasn't in the middle of sipping a drink just then - Laugh out load Laugh out load Laugh out load
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25-06-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Quick Easter questions
(24-06-2017 04:23 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  First off, it is a scientifically absurd story. Nobody dies like the bible intents the reader to believe and then magically survives rigor mortis.
It's very special pleading.

(24-06-2017 04:23 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Certainly people believe Jesus was resurrected, that is the entire point of the religion, for the believer to believe he died to save them.
The thing is, there is nothing remarkable about death.
To say that Jesus died for...
Kinda forgets the idea that Jesus (if he existed) was human and as we know, all humans die eventually. There is nothing remarkable or special about death.

Jesus dying isn't a sacrifice at all. We all die.
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