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28-03-2010, 08:25 AM
Quote mining
You know, the kind of quotations that religious apologists shove into your face. They usually pertain to an authoritative scientific figure, and leaving the argument from authority fallacy aside, they are often either taken out of context, or grossly misinterpreted.

A good example is Einstein's statement, claiming that "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." Now, on a first sight, it would appear as if Einstein believed the two to be interconnected and interdependent. But if one was to actually investigate the matter, one would discover that Einstein was an agnostic and what he meant by 'religion' was entirely different from the denotation of the term:

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms—it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

He dismissed the Bible and its deity as childish and superstition-based:

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

He also professed disbelief in a personal god, while avoiding to proclaim himself an atheist:

"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth."

However, he did believe in the historical existence of Jesus Christ:

"No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. How different, for instance, is the impression which we receive from an account of legendary heroes of antiquity like Theseus. Theseus and other heroes of his type lack the authentic vitality of Jesus."

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Eins...ious_views

and

http://einsteinandreligion.com/

What other famous examples do you know in this respect? From your experience, how do theists usually react when caught 'red handed'?

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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28-03-2010, 10:11 AM
RE: Quote mining
This one is obvious, but....
“To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."

And this completely disproves evolution, but wait! What is that? Another part that completes the above?

"Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.”
— Charles Darwin, Origin of Species

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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30-03-2010, 05:19 AM
 
RE: Quote mining
There were a number of quotes that martinb59 had posted where he had taken them out of context. He was quickly corrected, though, and called on it (I love doing that!).

My only question is: why? Why quote mine, especially when dealing with Atheists, who 99% of the time (I believe) will actually go to the source to debunk your quote mining?
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30-03-2010, 08:41 AM
RE: Quote mining
There is a flip side to this point: Bible quotes.

The problem with trying to use the Bible to disprove what Christians think it says is that the Bible says hundreds of different things, many of them self-contradictory, and Christians have been indoctrinated to believe that every time it says something it is speaking the truth. They can pick any verse they want and ignore the opposite one, then say that you are ignoring context when you bring up the old one.
I don't think it's right, I don't think that it's particularly intelligent, but they do it, and this means that arguing with religious people over what their holy book says is meaningless. Unless it's something incredibly mind-rapingly stupid like martinb59's dinosaur bit, there's no point in pointing out contradictions to them. They have long since mastered the art of doublethink - the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts and believe them both to be true.
Moral of the story: don't use Bible quotes against a Christian.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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30-03-2010, 09:39 PM
 
RE: Quote mining
I'mmmmm Baaaackkkkk!!!!

Ok, I have had a few emails saying this site is boring since I have been gone, and after reading it I would agree!

This is what "You People" to quote Ross Perot, get wrong about the Bible. I wrote this to a person privately on this site.

The Bible is not a buffet, you don’ walk up to it and say “Oh I like chicken, but no meat, and a little salad is good but no broccoli” You and others continue to pick and choose verses that have been answered in other places in the Bible. The word that people use is Panoply, you need to read the entire Bible.

If you were to write the story of your life so far, everything from your parents spanking you (if they did), to maybe putting you in a corner and gave you a time out, to keeping you from seeing violent movies when you were younger, maybe you had a curfew, maybe they made you go to school, maybe playing a sport or an instrument that you didn’t want to play. They were doing their best, AT THAT TIME, to make you a responsible person; you might have thought it was unfair, mean, cruel, abusive etc. Maybe when you were younger you stole from a store, you got drunk and got into a car crash, maybe you got bad grades for a semester because of some family issue, or maybe you were sick. The bottom line of the book is your parents love for you and helping you to become the man or woman, they would like you to be. If I just took out the parts of your story that dealt with punishment, keeping you from doing the things you wanted to do, going out with people you wanted to go out with, etc. I could take the parts that talked about drunk driving and getting in a crash and getting bad grades and say “This person is a flake, he drinks, does bad in school, doesn’t follow rules” Maybe you learned a lesson from the drunk driving and now you speak at schools, and you get straight A’s. I could make a case for your parents being horrible people, and that you’re a flake, but I am taking those parts out of the context of the whole story. Your story could be loving parents and a kid who learned from his mistakes, or a flake with abusive parents. That is what you and others do with the Bible, and I am really tired of always saying that over and over.
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30-03-2010, 10:07 PM
RE: Quote mining
Welcome back Martin. I don't know if it is because I was raised without or bible or what, but I find arguing over it's meaning is so boring that I want to slam my head against the table to try to evoke an escape, so no further comments on the rest of your post.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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30-03-2010, 10:32 PM
 
RE: Quote mining
(30-03-2010 10:07 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Welcome back Martin. I don't know if it is because I was raised without or bible or what, but I find arguing over it's meaning is so boring that I want to slam my head against the table to try to evoke an escape, so no further comments on the rest of your post.

And that is why you cannot make any comments about it. You are like every other atheist who "thinks" they no something about the Bible and don't have a clue!

Supermanlives I will go one on one with you ANYTIME about ANY verses that I have taken out of context. And I will answer EVERY verse you and your 133IQ can come up with. So call me out.
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30-03-2010, 10:38 PM
 
RE: Quote mining
(30-03-2010 10:07 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Welcome back Martin. I don't know if it is because I was raised without or bible or what, but I find arguing over its meaning is so boring that I want to slam my head against the table to try to evoke an escape, so no further comments on the rest of your post.

I second that.
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30-03-2010, 10:54 PM
 
RE: Quote mining
(30-03-2010 10:38 PM)Kara_Critica Wrote:  
(30-03-2010 10:07 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Welcome back Martin. I don't know if it is because I was raised without or bible or what, but I find arguing over its meaning is so boring that I want to slam my head against the table to try to evoke an escape, so no further comments on the rest of your post.

I second that.

Then I would expect to never see you or Ashley make a comment about it again!
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31-03-2010, 04:00 AM
 
RE: Quote mining
(30-03-2010 10:32 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(30-03-2010 10:07 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Welcome back Martin. I don't know if it is because I was raised without or bible or what, but I find arguing over it's meaning is so boring that I want to slam my head against the table to try to evoke an escape, so no further comments on the rest of your post.

And that is why you cannot make any comments about it. You are like every other atheist who "thinks" they no something about the Bible and don't have a clue!

Supermanlives I will go one on one with you ANYTIME about ANY verses that I have taken out of context. And I will answer EVERY verse you and your 133IQ can come up with. So call me out.

I thought you were fed up with us? We weren't 'thinking' enough for you!

As for your challenge, 'been there, done that'. If you want to argue with me, find another topic to argue about. The others have made a good point, and a major lesson learned for me. Don't try and argue with a theist using their own bible verses...its like a dog chasing its own bloody tail.

martin, I risk painting you with the same brush as every other theist out there when I say 'you all have tunnel vision' when it comes to arguing theology. Rarely do any of you (theists) stray off the 'good path' (by that, I mean you don't look at any OTHER side of the argument...it's always 'bible says this, bible says that') except for the times you try and convolute what science is trying to say to fit your own fucked up agenda.

When you have read a book OTHER THAN the bible, that properly addresses the opposing view (i.e. a SCIENCE book), then come talk to me.

Until then...CIAO.
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