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31-03-2010, 05:17 AM
RE: Quote mining
(30-03-2010 09:39 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  I'mmmmm Baaaackkkkk!!!!

Ok, I have had a few emails saying this site is boring since I have been gone, and after reading it I would agree!

This is what "You People" to quote Ross Perot, get wrong about the Bible. I wrote this to a person privately on this site.

The Bible is not a buffet, you don’ walk up to it and say “Oh I like chicken, but no meat, and a little salad is good but no broccoli” You and others continue to pick and choose verses that have been answered in other places in the Bible. The word that people use is Panoply, you need to read the entire Bible.

If you were to write the story of your life so far, everything from your parents spanking you (if they did), to maybe putting you in a corner and gave you a time out, to keeping you from seeing violent movies when you were younger, maybe you had a curfew, maybe they made you go to school, maybe playing a sport or an instrument that you didn’t want to play. They were doing their best, AT THAT TIME, to make you a responsible person; you might have thought it was unfair, mean, cruel, abusive etc. Maybe when you were younger you stole from a store, you got drunk and got into a car crash, maybe you got bad grades for a semester because of some family issue, or maybe you were sick. The bottom line of the book is your parents love for you and helping you to become the man or woman, they would like you to be. If I just took out the parts of your story that dealt with punishment, keeping you from doing the things you wanted to do, going out with people you wanted to go out with, etc. I could take the parts that talked about drunk driving and getting in a crash and getting bad grades and say “This person is a flake, he drinks, does bad in school, doesn’t follow rules” Maybe you learned a lesson from the drunk driving and now you speak at schools, and you get straight A’s. I could make a case for your parents being horrible people, and that you’re a flake, but I am taking those parts out of the context of the whole story. Your story could be loving parents and a kid who learned from his mistakes, or a flake with abusive parents. That is what you and others do with the Bible, and I am really tired of always saying that over and over.

Sorry but what you're saying here makes no sense. Some things are intolerable regardless of the context.

Let me use your own analogy here: let's just say Kid X has two so-called 'loving' parents who punish misbehaviour whenever necessary, but also lavish him with gifts and promises when he is obedient. They teach him moral lessons about being responsible, and not craving other people's belongings, not being envious etc. Now, let us imagine kid X had a brother, kid Y, who was conceived by the same parents, but was raised by an aunt, or grandparent. Maybe this kid has better grades. Or maybe he has more toys. Or a bigger room. Let's just say that Kid X might have some benefit if Kid Y disappears. So, what if one day, the parents would order Kid X to kill Kid Y, on account of his being gay, or because he masturbates, or because he holds a different religious belief? 'Son, if you kill your brother, you won't have competition at school anymore, or you'll be able to have his toys, or stay in his room. Oh but don't worry, he's vile and immoral anyway, no one will miss him.' Would that still be an act of love? Would it have any sort of justification? Would you, as a person, think it morally acceptable? Probably not. Most likely you'd be shocked and appalled. Well it's the same with Jahweh. On the one hand, the Bible gives moral lessons about what to do and what not to do, it teaches people not to be envious or covet their neighbour's belongings, it proclaims that god loves his children unconditionally, but on the other hand it allows his 'chosen' people (and how could he have a chosen people if he loves everyone equally?) to slaughter other nations so as to take possession of their territories. Is that what a loving 'father' does?

Now let me get back to my analogy, and ask you what do such parents deserve for their acts? Should they be praised and given as an example to all parents in the world? Or should they be removed for custody and put in prison or psychiatric hospital? Similarly, should we praise the god of the Bible even if acts of cruelty were attributed to him, because 'it's for the best'? Or should remove ourselves from the custody of 'god' (i.e. religion) and follow more acceptable moral standards?

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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31-03-2010, 06:13 AM
RE: Quote mining
(30-03-2010 10:32 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(30-03-2010 10:07 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Welcome back Martin. I don't know if it is because I was raised without or bible or what, but I find arguing over it's meaning is so boring that I want to slam my head against the table to try to evoke an escape, so no further comments on the rest of your post.

And that is why you cannot make any comments about it. You are like every other atheist who "thinks" they no something about the Bible and don't have a clue!

This coming from the guy who still thinks that the Bible contains a reference to dinosaurs? Funny.

Anyway, welcome back. Perhaps you can stick around this time - you must admit, the debates are entertaining, even when they do get frustrating for one side or the other. Maybe we can try to keep it a little more civil this time, though.

J'uk, ydtruz-t'rud-eztuza, hudr'zd dezek drez'huk, huzu-kruk't b'tduz g'ke'k me'ek b'tduz kce'drutk ke'hkt'd. aaDb'thuk?*

*: Listen, Sunshine, I don't want to have to give anyone a smacking, so if you'll play B'tduz** with me, I'll play B'tduz with you. Okay?

**: A popular Dwarfish game which consists of standing a few feet apart and throwing large rocks at one anothers' heads.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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31-03-2010, 08:56 AM
RE: Quote mining
Hi. Total newbie to the forum, and pretty new to atheism as well. Thought I might as well jump in with both feet...

Here's the problem with this comparison to parents and their disciplinary habits and so on and so forth. It's just not an accurate comparison. It does not mesh with the claim(s) that Christians make about their god and their Bible. You hear it all the time that God is the father and loving parent and on and on. The difference is that God is supposed to be perfect, omnipotent, omnipresent, as opposed to non-perfect human parents.

The Bible is supposed to be his perfect, inerrant, and complete revelation to the world. It's supposed to be an accurate representation of his character, of his expectations, of his plan, and of his completely objective moral truth to us, his children.

So the argument or comparison that as we read parts of the Bible, it reflects "the best He could do at the time" with the people at the time goes out the window. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that God is forever unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow and then in the same breath say "yeah but his instructions to the Israelites was the best He could do at the time." Sorry, I call bullshit. He is supposed to know exactly what's going on. Why can He not communicate clearly? I know there's that pesky human free will, which clouds our judgments and thinking, but if you go that route, then to me you are saying that human free will has the power to trump God's communication.

Again, you would expect discrepancies and changes in behavior from fallible, changing, human parents. We are not supposed to see these changes and discrepancies in God or his character. But we do. Almost constantly. Sometimes within the same book of the Bible.

------

As to the original topic, I think a lot of theists quote mine because they don't do the research themselves. They pick up a partial quote from someone who did the quote mining, and it sounds good, so they run with it. I had someone jump all over the "problems" of carbon dating and it's relationship to the age of the earth just the other day - unfortunately it was late and I wasn't sharp enough to point out that scientists don't use carbon dating to determine the age of the earth, or the fact that all the "problems" of carbon dating are well known and good scientists avoid those problems, as they should. I'm hoping to sharpen my verbal reply/debate skills and knowledge.

I think most quote mining comes from simple laziness, not necessarily actual dishonesty.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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31-03-2010, 09:45 AM
RE: Quote mining
(31-03-2010 08:56 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  Hi. Total newbie to the forum, and pretty new to atheism as well. Thought I might as well jump in with both feet...

Welcome! Glad to have you with us.

Quote:<snip>

As to the original topic, I think a lot of theists quote mine because they don't do the research themselves. They pick up a partial quote from someone who did the quote mining, and it sounds good, so they run with it. I had someone jump all over the "problems" of carbon dating and it's relationship to the age of the earth just the other day - unfortunately it was late and I wasn't sharp enough to point out that scientists don't use carbon dating to determine the age of the earth, or the fact that all the "problems" of carbon dating are well known and good scientists avoid those problems, as they should. I'm hoping to sharpen my verbal reply/debate skills and knowledge.

I think most quote mining comes from simple laziness, not necessarily actual dishonesty.

And I think you hit the nail right on the head. This entire post was a very impressive intro, and I can tell already that you're going to be an asset to this forum. Keep it up!

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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31-03-2010, 03:11 PM
 
Smile RE: Quote mining
(30-03-2010 10:54 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(30-03-2010 10:38 PM)Kara_Critica Wrote:  
(30-03-2010 10:07 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Welcome back Martin. I don't know if it is because I was raised without or bible or what, but I find arguing over its meaning is so boring that I want to slam my head against the table to try to evoke an escape, so no further comments on the rest of your post.

I second that.

Then I would expect to never see you or Ashley make a comment about it again!

And you would be right. Except in this case I realized I was completely wrong. All I did was state how I felt, and what does that accomplish?

I may still be wrong, but it seems to me that if we look at Martin's post from a logical angle, he was comparing the Christian holy book to an autobiography and saying that any reader could "cherry-pick" bits of it that matched his or her own point of view.

This is demonstrably true. It is something I've seen from both Christians and Atheists--picking out certain quotes from that holy book to supposedly prove...well, almost anything, but certainly to portray people and/or religious figures in either a positive or negative light.

The problem with this comparison is that I've never heard any Atheist claim that they rejected the validity of the Christian holy book as the divinely inspired word of any deity because it consistently portrayed either the Judeo-Christian god or the people involved in a consistently negative light.

The primary reasons for doing so seem to be that it is one of many, many holy books of many different religions, and makes the same claims to divine inspiration while offering no particular reason to choose it over another religious tract. Also, and perhaps more important, it does not have the characteristics one could reasonably expect from any document claiming to be inspired by the words of an omniscient, omnipresent entity. It is full of events, statements, and concepts which are both self-contradictory and demonstrably false.
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31-03-2010, 06:45 PM
 
RE: Quote mining
Kara_Critica I have bad news for you! You got what I was trying to say in the first half of your response, FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT!!!! The problem for you is everyone thinks I'm crazy so you have either risen above or sunk to the bottom of this pool.

This quote, of course I totally disagree with "It is full of events, statements, and concepts which are both self-contradictory and demonstrably false" But we can talk about that later.
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31-03-2010, 07:16 PM
RE: Quote mining
(30-03-2010 10:32 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(30-03-2010 10:07 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Welcome back Martin. I don't know if it is because I was raised without or bible or what, but I find arguing over it's meaning is so boring that I want to slam my head against the table to try to evoke an escape, so no further comments on the rest of your post.

And that is why you cannot make any comments about it. You are like every other atheist who "thinks" they no something about the Bible and don't have a clue!

Wow, this has really taken off. I don't know if you are mixing up comments or what, but I have never claimed to know anything about the bible(I've probably claimed the opposite, such as now. I know very little about the bible). I challenge you to find one of my posts when I really talk bible versus(I may have briefly brushed on a versus now and then, but never anything in depth). I'm pretty sure you're are just mixing up who said what, because I would remember if I made such outright lies, like if I decided to pretend to know German for a day.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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01-04-2010, 02:32 PM
 
RE: Quote mining
(30-03-2010 08:41 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  There is a flip side to this point: Bible quotes.

The problem with trying to use the Bible to disprove what Christians think it says is that the Bible says hundreds of different things, many of them self-contradictory, and Christians have been indoctrinated to believe that every time it says something it is speaking the truth. They can pick any verse they want and ignore the opposite one, then say that you are ignoring context when you bring up the old one.
I don't think it's right, I don't think that it's particularly intelligent, but they do it, and this means that arguing with religious people over what their holy book says is meaningless. Unless it's something incredibly mind-rapingly stupid like martinb59's dinosaur bit, there's no point in pointing out contradictions to them. They have long since mastered the art of doublethink - the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts and believe them both to be true.
Moral of the story: don't use Bible quotes against a Christian.

Clarify what you mean by " incredibly mind-rapingly stupid like martinb59's dinosaur bit"
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01-04-2010, 02:34 PM
RE: Quote mining
(01-04-2010 02:32 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(30-03-2010 08:41 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  There is a flip side to this point: Bible quotes.

The problem with trying to use the Bible to disprove what Christians think it says is that the Bible says hundreds of different things, many of them self-contradictory, and Christians have been indoctrinated to believe that every time it says something it is speaking the truth. They can pick any verse they want and ignore the opposite one, then say that you are ignoring context when you bring up the old one.
I don't think it's right, I don't think that it's particularly intelligent, but they do it, and this means that arguing with religious people over what their holy book says is meaningless. Unless it's something incredibly mind-rapingly stupid like martinb59's dinosaur bit, there's no point in pointing out contradictions to them. They have long since mastered the art of doublethink - the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts and believe them both to be true.
Moral of the story: don't use Bible quotes against a Christian.

Clarify what you mean by " incredibly mind-rapingly stupid like martinb59's dinosaur bit"

I have. Several times. Including in the last post of your latest thread. Don't tell me that you are still maintaining that you didn't blatantly quote-mine those verses.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-04-2010, 02:38 PM
 
RE: Quote mining
(01-04-2010 02:34 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(01-04-2010 02:32 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(30-03-2010 08:41 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  There is a flip side to this point: Bible quotes.

The problem with trying to use the Bible to disprove what Christians think it says is that the Bible says hundreds of different things, many of them self-contradictory, and Christians have been indoctrinated to believe that every time it says something it is speaking the truth. They can pick any verse they want and ignore the opposite one, then say that you are ignoring context when you bring up the old one.
I don't think it's right, I don't think that it's particularly intelligent, but they do it, and this means that arguing with religious people over what their holy book says is meaningless. Unless it's something incredibly mind-rapingly stupid like martinb59's dinosaur bit, there's no point in pointing out contradictions to them. They have long since mastered the art of doublethink - the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts and believe them both to be true.
Moral of the story: don't use Bible quotes against a Christian.

Clarify what you mean by " incredibly mind-rapingly stupid like martinb59's dinosaur bit"

I have. Several times. Including in the last post of your latest thread. Don't tell me that you are still maintaining that you didn't blatantly quote-mine those verses.

What verses, just tell me I don't have to go back and look.
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