Quoting the bible.
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17-06-2016, 12:21 PM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2016 12:24 PM by Commonsensei.)
Quoting the bible.
Many of my friends are deeply religious. And for the most part I keep my mouth shut and go with the flow. Their beliefs don't really affect me, and their happy so I allow them to go about their day as they allow me.

But it's becoming an annoying habit of a few of my friends who post nothing but bible quotes in their facebook feed. I rather hear about how their doing not about what grab bag bible quote they picked that day. An older friend (we'll call him Mr. R) almost regualry posts about how he feels repressed. That no one wants to take the bible seriously and they want to destroy his views. He is unaware of my Atheism, and out of most of the people he's friends with I think I'm the only one he would know. I pretty sure it's just his church trying to get him rialed up, because the majority of those post pop up on sundays.

So any way.

Time after time he quotes the bible. No context. Just something like. Proverbs 3:5 or Probverbs 4:23.

And just leaves it up to the viewer to do the foot work. So I reached by breaking point. We've know each other from college. For the most part has been a pretty good friend. And it seems only quiet recently that he's jumped on the Jesus train full throatal. So I commented on his latest religious post.


Quote:Mr. R.
Proverbs 3:5

(Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;)

Sensei
So "Don't think for yourself, just accept what you're told is true." Isn't that a contradiction from 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. ) "everything needs to be proven"?

Mr. R.
Actually no. you are accepting what God is telling you. All things through Him will be proven. So there is not contradiction there.

What that verse is saying is that your mind can be persuaded by many things, so don't just try to figure everything out on your own. This is where prayer comes into play. you ask God to reveal the truth to you. He will do it in his way.

You should really start reading your bible. All these questions are answered in it.

Sensei
Interesting. You wouldn't mind if I ask you some more question on this. I've been doing a lot of bible reading lately, and would like to throw some more questions your way. It would be conferring be able to talk with someone that I consider a friend. and not a stranger that would take direct offence.

Mr. R.
That is absolutely fine. PM me or call we can talk about whatever you have questions on. I will answer to the best of my knowledge.

Sensei
Great. When I get some free time I'd really like to do that.
So my master plan has been put into motion.

I want him to feel comfortable and not threated. He is my friend not an adversary. I started off by expressing interest in the subject, (which I am) and even thou he went right to bible thumping in an almost condescending manor (You should really start reading your bible) I remain calm an collected. Since the majority of his bible verses are all from the NT, I'll probably pick from the OT.

I imagine like most moderate Christians he has 1 of 2 thoughts on the OT

"the OT doesn't apply because of Jesus "sacrifice". Which cleared that all out."

Or

"It's all metaphor."


I'm going to attempt to be as sincere as possible with out stepping into I've heard it all before territory. I want him to believe he is the first person that is taking the time to talk with me on this matter. It will play to his ego, which will make him not move to far off from the script he has been spoon fed.

I hope to active 2 things. Plant a seed of doubt and hope it grows. And make his stop posting the stupid bible quotes.

My plotted line of question will be as follows.
How do you know the bible is true?
Predicted responses (personal revelation, raised to believe, I just believe)
Do you use that method for anything else? Is it reliable when applying it to these other things?
If you where raised to believe in this one god what method did you use to rule out all the other god's/religions?
PR(the bible, personal revelation)
If events in the where proven to be not true, or greatly embellished upon. Would that sway you from your faith?
On a scale from 1 - 100 what would you say is _____ attbutes to saying ___ is true?
What would you say to someone that was a Scientologist/ Mormon/ Hindu that used those same methods to conclude on different god's and religions?

Now I know conversations will veer off track. But hopefully so long as I can keep my cool I will refrain from becoming the angry atheist, or pounding him down with history, science, and my own personal stances on the matter. I want him to deeply think about this questions. If I feel the conversation gets to heated I'll distract him with video game talk. That is what the two of us connect the most on. I don't want him to forget that I am his friend and not his enemy.

So we'll see how this goes. I'm always open to any advice, or if you find flaws in my logic I'll listen to that as well.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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17-06-2016, 02:01 PM
RE: Quoting the bible.
If he uses the metaphor thing, ask him when the real begins and and the metaphor ends and vice versa. That has stumped a ton of people in my experience, because depending on how they answer it, they may be making the entire "history" of Jesus a metaphor and if that's true, how can they be justified in him being a messiah (it was a metaphor, right)? How can they be justified in taking prophecy seriously if it was intended to be a metaphor? Good luck.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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17-06-2016, 02:17 PM
RE: Quoting the bible.
Thanks. This things have a way of flying off the rails. I'll play dumb, and innocent.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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17-06-2016, 02:26 PM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2016 02:30 PM by SitaSky.)
RE: Quoting the bible.
You are going down the right track and you're doing well with keeping your cool, I have to do the same with Christians I know but like I've said before the one's around here are pretty hippy dippy and meditate more than they ever pray and I'm pretty sure they've never read the Bible.

I'd also ask him how does he know his God only speaks the truth and can't lie? Can he ever change or is he unchanging? If he can't why did he once say that unruly children, homosexuals and non-virgin women should be put to death but not rapists?

If he says he changed his mind or it's all different now you can bring up all the bible quotes that show Jesus didn't come to change the law, God is unchanging, he can't sin so can't lie, he only knows the objective moral truth, etc. so when he singled out women who had sex before marriage to be stoned but not men who are rapists he actually fucking meant that abhorrent shit and he's not changing his mind...ever...but say it nicely.

This last Sunday I went to dinner with my fiance's mom and brother and we talked about the Orlando shooting, they were going on about how the Quran makes rules about killing homosexuals and I said "Yeah so does the Bible." and they said "No, it doesn't." and I said " Yes, it says their blood shall be upon them, it also says to kill witches and unruly kids." My fiance spoke up and said "Don't do this, she knows all about this stuff, just stop now." and they shut up but seriously what's up with these christians? How do you not know what's in their bible?

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17-06-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: Quoting the bible.
(17-06-2016 02:26 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I'd also ask him how does he know his God only speaks the truth and can't lie?

If that's the claim, ask him about 1 Kings 22
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

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17-06-2016, 03:20 PM
RE: Quoting the bible.
(17-06-2016 02:26 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  You are going down the right track and you're doing well with keeping your cool, I have to do the same with Christians I know but like I've said before the one's around here are pretty hippy dippy and meditate more than they ever pray and I'm pretty sure they've never read the Bible.

I'd also ask him how does he know his God only speaks the truth and can't lie? Can he ever change or is he unchanging? If he can't why did he once say that unruly children, homosexuals and non-virgin women should be put to death but not rapists?

If he says he changed his mind or it's all different now you can bring up all the bible quotes that show Jesus didn't come to change the law, God is unchanging, he can't sin so can't lie, he only knows the objective moral truth, etc. so when he singled out women who had sex before marriage to be stoned but not men who are rapists he actually fucking meant that abhorrent shit and he's not changing his mind...ever...but say it nicely.

This last Sunday I went to dinner with my fiance's mom and brother and we talked about the Orlando shooting, they were going on about how the Quran makes rules about killing homosexuals and I said "Yeah so does the Bible." and they said "No, it doesn't." and I said " Yes, it says their blood shall be upon them, it also says to kill witches and unruly kids." My fiance spoke up and said "Don't do this, she knows all about this stuff, just stop now." and they shut up but seriously what's up with these christians? How do you not know what's in their bible?

As I said it's spoon fed. What I remember the most about learning about the bible was in CCD. Often it would evolve a group circle. Our teacher would read something from the bible or a pamphlet and ask us questions about what we think it ment. Usually it was the same responses threw out. Not like the line we're that deep. "Oh it means he loves us." "What a sacrifice Jesus made, when everyone was so mean he took one fore the team." Adam & Eve, Moses, Noah. David & Goliath. These were the main stories we were told. The didn't talk about the killing their adversary's, and raping the woman. They didn't talk about bears eating children for making fun of a bald man or talking donkeys. (that I can recall)

Church was more about the routen. Sit, Kneel, Stand, rinse repeat. We need money. These people need money. Let's sing. Let's pray. Sit, Kneel, stand.

Have you heard Tim Minchin's poem Storm? When you where talking about sitting down at dinner that the first thing that popped in my mind.




Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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17-06-2016, 03:21 PM
RE: Quoting the bible.
(17-06-2016 03:11 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 02:26 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I'd also ask him how does he know his God only speaks the truth and can't lie?

If that's the claim, ask him about 1 Kings 22
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Noted. Thumbsup

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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17-06-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: Quoting the bible.
Don't forget Matthew 21:17. Wink

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

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17-06-2016, 04:54 PM
RE: Quoting the bible.
(17-06-2016 03:20 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 02:26 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  You are going down the right track and you're doing well with keeping your cool, I have to do the same with Christians I know but like I've said before the one's around here are pretty hippy dippy and meditate more than they ever pray and I'm pretty sure they've never read the Bible.

I'd also ask him how does he know his God only speaks the truth and can't lie? Can he ever change or is he unchanging? If he can't why did he once say that unruly children, homosexuals and non-virgin women should be put to death but not rapists?

If he says he changed his mind or it's all different now you can bring up all the bible quotes that show Jesus didn't come to change the law, God is unchanging, he can't sin so can't lie, he only knows the objective moral truth, etc. so when he singled out women who had sex before marriage to be stoned but not men who are rapists he actually fucking meant that abhorrent shit and he's not changing his mind...ever...but say it nicely.

This last Sunday I went to dinner with my fiance's mom and brother and we talked about the Orlando shooting, they were going on about how the Quran makes rules about killing homosexuals and I said "Yeah so does the Bible." and they said "No, it doesn't." and I said " Yes, it says their blood shall be upon them, it also says to kill witches and unruly kids." My fiance spoke up and said "Don't do this, she knows all about this stuff, just stop now." and they shut up but seriously what's up with these christians? How do you not know what's in their bible?

As I said it's spoon fed. What I remember the most about learning about the bible was in CCD. Often it would evolve a group circle. Our teacher would read something from the bible or a pamphlet and ask us questions about what we think it ment. Usually it was the same responses threw out. Not like the line we're that deep. "Oh it means he loves us." "What a sacrifice Jesus made, when everyone was so mean he took one fore the team." Adam & Eve, Moses, Noah. David & Goliath. These were the main stories we were told. The didn't talk about the killing their adversary's, and raping the woman. They didn't talk about bears eating children for making fun of a bald man or talking donkeys. (that I can recall)

Church was more about the routen. Sit, Kneel, Stand, rinse repeat. We need money. These people need money. Let's sing. Let's pray. Sit, Kneel, stand.

Have you heard Tim Minchin's poem Storm? When you where talking about sitting down at dinner that the first thing that popped in my mind.



Damn I like that video.
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17-06-2016, 06:42 PM
RE: Quoting the bible.
(17-06-2016 03:20 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Have you heard Tim Minchin's poem Storm? When you where talking about sitting down at dinner that the first thing that popped in my mind.




Wow thanks for sharing, that girl Storm could be all the hippy Xians I run into on a regular basis who always say dumb cliches like "Well we don't know what's out there, it's gotta be bigger than us, we're all connected, blah blah." Yeah but what about what we have found to be true? How do you not understand basic science and theories like evolution? Just fucking Google it!

But yeah my fiance's family are pretty cool and nice people, they don't force us to be religious or to just "consider it." like they used to, they've given up because all the time I politely debated them they ended up against a wall and couldn't offer me any real reason to believe except it "feels" good, yeah for them it feels good but not for us. Once they try to go down that road he stops them because he knows I won't be stopped once I get started, I'll never sit biting my tongue for anyone, maybe if someone is dying in the room but that's about it.

Thanks again! Wink

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