RIP Margaret Thatcher
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11-04-2013, 11:54 AM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
bbeljefe, some of your attitudes are shit and some are right on. I remember debating with women about how could they defend Clinton when he obviously abused a person that I would call a "star fucker". They would simply deny my argument.

I do not think that this fact negates the entirety of the "feminist" movement, and trust me as an open collectivist it is far from socialist. One should not label incorrectly when it suits ones ideas. I for example must resist the term fascist.
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11-04-2013, 12:01 PM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
(11-04-2013 10:38 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  ... real women's movement.

It's what I live for.

Blush



Sorry, I thought this was the 'out of context' or the 'raison d'etre' thread. My bad.

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11-04-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
(11-04-2013 11:54 AM)JAH Wrote:  bbeljefe, some of your attitudes are shit and some are right on. I remember debating with women about how could they defend Clinton when he obviously abused a person that I would call a "star fucker". They would simply deny my argument.

I do not think that this fact negates the entirety of the "feminist" movement, and trust me as an open collectivist it is far from socialist. One should not label incorrectly when it suits ones ideas. I for example must resist the term fascist.

I thought I made it quite clear that I was speaking of the leadership of the feminist movement. Ergo...

"Actually, I understand why the mainstream feminist movement doesn't recognize Thatcher or Rand."

"~because (organized) feminism isn't a women's movement at all."

"For instance, mainstream feminists ~"

I don't think anyone could reasonably assume I was talking about the entirety of women who call themselves feminists, were they reading my words in the absence of the same sort of bias I was lamenting.

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11-04-2013, 04:59 PM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
At risk of offending, I will offer that feminist leaders did not recognize Ayn Rand nor Margaret Thatcher because they were ignorant shits. Not ignorant in the sense that they could become famous but ignorant in a variety of other ways. Thatcher did apparently have enough sense to know Reagan was a fool but that is limited sense as most should know.

That aside I continue to wonder at why you would call the feminist movement socialist. Is it because they asked the state for protection against discrimination. Would you also characterize worker safety laws (some of which are honestly foolish, mostly they are reasonable) as socialism. If the state acts in any way to protect those with limited power is it socialism.

I will reiterate that my far left view is that feminism is not at all socialist. One can see that in its classist nature.
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11-04-2013, 08:15 PM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
(11-04-2013 10:38 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Thatcher was a politician, so of course she lied, got people killed and wreaked havoc on an economy. That's what politicians do. Thatcher also entered the political arena at a time when it was almost exclusively a boy's club. While she wasn't the first woman to enter politics, she was the first woman to reach that level of notoriety. Like her or don't, that's the truth. Personally, I see her just as I see every other golden throated sociopath who seeks to foist his/her will on others. Because, that's what sociopaths do. And regardless the fact that she entered a dishonorable profession, she none the less did so against the odds. Ayn Rand also entered a male dominated world and reached a level of notoriety that hundreds of thousands, if not millions of male philosophers only dreamed of reaching. Again, like her or don't, she reached that position.

In the end, both of those women achieved goals that had not yet been achieved by women and any intellectually honest person, feminist or not, would recognize that fact. And recognition isn't synonymous with admiration or endorsement, so I really fail to see why there is such vehement denial, both here and in the feminist movement writ large of a simple fact.

Actually, I understand why the mainstream feminist movement doesn't recognize Thatcher or Rand. It's because (organized) feminism isn't a women's movement at all. Rather, it is a socialist political movement that, in my assessment, seeks only to reach a point where it can become a political party. This is evidenced not only by the fact that feminists dismiss Rand and Thatcher out of hand but also in the contrast between their purported interests and those it actually does endorse.

For instance, mainstream feminists agitate for very strict laws against marital abuse & the alleged objectification of women who work in the sex industry. However, those same women supported (and still do) Bill Clinton. Clinton is a known adulterer and womanizer who took a 23[sic] year old intern, shot his wad on her clothing and used her vagina to wet the tip of his cigar afterward.

Is there anything at all virtuous about treating an unpaid subordinate in such a way? Even if we accept that she consented to being Clinton's fuck doll, how is that any different than a woman who actively and voluntarily seeks out employment as an adult entertainer? After all, the latter are actually being compensated for their labor and, they can refuse service to any would be customer without fear of losing their jobs or, at least, without fear that they will be unable to find work elsewhere. Can we say that about Monica Lewinsky? Is it reasonable to assume that had she rejected Clinton's advances, she would have been able to continue on her career path unhindered?

It has been said that feminism is socialism with tits. That's a crude way to put it, I'll admit. But frankly, it's nowhere near as crude as using women's rights as a stepping stone for an immoral political agenda.

It's bad enough that there was ever a need for a women's movement to begin with. But to have so many people willing to blatantly deny the achievements of women, based on something so shallow and vain as politics, is proof positive that there is still such a need. Perhaps one day someone will begin a real women's movement.


Or people see that the fact she is a women is not so surprising and amazing because the whole feminist shit is working and people know that any job a man could do, a women could do as well (within reason).
Maybe there isn't such a massive deal that she's a women because nobody cares.

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11-04-2013, 09:07 PM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
As was mentioned upthread, one might consider her a British female version of Reagan. That is more true than may be realized--both influence each other on policy and economic ideas.

It is revealing to see the hatred and venom directed at an extraordinarily talented women and leader like Thatcher. The left respectfully stood by when Reagan died, while dancing on Thatcher's grave. I just can't imagine anyone dancing on the grave of any US president to date. Maybe Americans have more respect for presidents since they also serve as heads of state. I admire Thatcher for her advocacy of limited government, the free market, and democracy. But Thatcher was certainly an influential and consequential leader of the 20th century.

She wasn't just a trail-blazer as the only female Prime Minister of Great Britain to date. She also got her degree in Chemistry from Oxford in the 1940s--yes, the 1940s. She majored in a physical science in an era when women were expected to be not much more than homemakers, and she was employed professionally as a chemist before she entered politics.
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11-04-2013, 09:20 PM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
(11-04-2013 04:59 PM)JAH Wrote:  At risk of offending, I will offer that feminist leaders did not recognize Ayn Rand nor Margaret Thatcher because they were ignorant shits. Not ignorant in the sense that they could become famous but ignorant in a variety of other ways. Thatcher did apparently have enough sense to know Reagan was a fool but that is limited sense as most should know.

That aside I continue to wonder at why you would call the feminist movement socialist. Is it because they asked the state for protection against discrimination. Would you also characterize worker safety laws (some of which are honestly foolish, mostly they are reasonable) as socialism. If the state acts in any way to protect those with limited power is it socialism.

I will reiterate that my far left view is that feminism is not at all socialist. One can see that in its classist nature.

I'm neither surprised nor offended that a leftist calls someone with whom they disagree an idiot. No worries there.

As for socialism, the US is in practice, though not in name, a socialist republic. The state either owns or controls the means of production (or any combination thereof) in a socialist society. The US government owns a good portion of some of those means in monopoly and controls virtually every facet of commerce. Likewise, notable feminists almost exclusively support leftist politicians and the socialist legislation they peddle. Thus, mainstream feminism is a socialist political movement.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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12-04-2013, 12:50 AM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
bbeljefe, I must apologize for using intemperate words. Both women I called ignorant were not so, because they think differently than me does not make them so. I do find both more than offensive in thought but that is obviously different than ignorance. I will say I did not use the word idiot.

Your opinion that in the US the state controls the means of production I find a bit off. I myself believe that the means of production (more properly the financial sector) controls the state. Is it possible that both opinions are correct but imply a different starting point.

I might also suggest that certain controls of commerce are valid. Should the public be exposed to beef from cattle who have mad cow disease, or should workers (as I said above) be exposed to unsafe conditions. The state may be a flawed idea but unregulated commerce is also currently a flawed idea.
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12-04-2013, 06:03 AM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
Interesting that with one exception the posters that admire her of feel she did a good job are all from America. Brits that either lived through her have seen the horrible things she done disagree.

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12-04-2013, 07:08 AM
RE: RIP Margaret Thatcher
I'm not from America. I'm from Canadia. Tongue

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