Racism in the US - how bad is it?
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27-09-2017, 01:11 PM
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
(27-09-2017 01:01 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(27-09-2017 12:56 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Not everybody feels slighted when other people succeed.

Well if you mix in the idea that maybe you are prevented from succeeding then the percentage rises pretty quickly I'd contend.
All things being equal I don't resent success.
And I'm white. I'm not sure if I was black and living in an economically depressed area with crap schools and very little hope for a good job I'd feel the same.
But even I resent the hell out of the fact that many people start on the 50 yard line.
And typically they are the ones that preach about "pulling yourself up by the boot straps." Dubbya Bush, Mitt Romney and Trump being the perfect example of this delusion.
If that amounts to resenting other's success then call me guilty.

Situations can change your perception and I totally understand that.

What other people have does not bother me, it never has. It is just the way I am wired.
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27-09-2017, 01:16 PM
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
(27-09-2017 12:20 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  As I said, this isn't racism. It's learned behavior.

Racism is learned behavior too.

No one is born hating someone for the color of their skin. They're taught that.

Just like conditioning can make someone of color afraid of the police.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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27-09-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
In Canada and more specifically in Quebec, I have observed that racism (and sexism by since both rely on pretty much the same types of arguments) is like a virus. It spreads and infect society in pretty much every level, but remains dormant and largely without direct observable concequenses. On a personnal level, racism, is an attitude and a belief. In normal circomstances, these attitudes and this belief are supressed by social norms of behavior that demand an acceptance of all human being as equal in respect and dignity. Thus, racism conceal itself, but isn't gone for real.

When trouble arise, those beliefs and attitudes that were supressed by fear of social rejection, but also due to cultural hegemony of multiculturalism, start to stir in the population. Many people hold an ''inconsistent'' belief in multiculturalism. They believe in the equality of races (or sexes), but at the same time are keenly aware and know all the arguments for racism and they don't find them without temptation or ''common sense''. In the best circomstances, these temptations are completly, consciously or unconsciously depending on the individual, repressed, but in time of conflict, of fear, of high competition or thanks to the actions of a shameless leader, they become more and more powerful up to the point where a person that defended race equality can be found spouting racist ''dogwistle'' or making downright racist comments/actions.

In addition to this very personnal and individual vision of racism, our society structures and history is clearly marked by a long period of institutionalised racism that profoundly affect groups in a large scale. While people, or insitutions are not nearly as racist as they used to be, social and cultural structures are still vastly designed to support and express a racist wordview, creating problems of systemic discrimination.

In my opinion, the American society isn't much different than the Canadian one when it comes to racism. I don't believe that most or even a significant portion of American are racist. I would say that around 10% of them could qualify for that title, but I do believe that a majority of Americans can be tempted and swayed to join those 10% in the proper circomstances.

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27-09-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
(27-09-2017 01:08 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(27-09-2017 12:55 PM)wazzel Wrote:  It's dude (Mark). Why do you feel for me? I am not in search of pity. My views are very much realistic, even tho I like to look for the up side. I am not thinking we need a group hug and sing kumbaya around the campfire. I am not under any false notion that things will magically be better tomorrow since we wish it to be. A change of attitude needs to happen, but I know it may or may not. Communities need a shared vision across racial divisions that will make things better for everybody. Jobs, education, community programs, recreational leagues, etc, etc are all part of a very big picture. They are all interlinked and interdependent on each other, almost organic like.

I'm not giving pity. I feel for you because of your story.
It's not pity. It's sympathy.
I agree that "communities need a shared vision" but that's the hard part.
More that a shared vision is needed across society. All communities.
And I admire your optimism. I don't share it.
I have come to see the fight against most of the longest lasting difficulties like racism as about 99% economic. Take care of that and the rest takes care of it's self.
Where we differ is that I think that if you don't take care of peoples incomes and livelihoods then all of the potential for a shared vision goes right out the window.

I don't need your sympathy either.

I never meant to imply what I was saying would be easy, because it is not. Getting more than two people to agree on something is difficult enough. When you get to hundreds or thousands with multiple different backgrounds it becomes dam near impossible, but it has to be the goal.

Overall prosperity of a community can do a lot to ease racial tensions as long as everybody gets a share. It would do very little for a community to have a boom where only a few benefit. When you do not have enough to eat or live in a crappy place (or the street) normal deterrents like having some thing to loose or going to jail are just not there.
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27-09-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
(27-09-2017 01:18 PM)epronovost Wrote:  In Canada and more specifically in Quebec, I have observed that racism (and sexism by since both rely on pretty much the same types of arguments) is like a virus. It spreads and infect society in pretty much every level, but remains dormant and largely without direct observable concequenses. On a personnal level, racism, is an attitude and a belief. In normal circomstances, these attitudes and this belief are supressed by social norms of behavior that demand an acceptance of all human being as equal in respect and dignity. Thus, racism conceal itself, but isn't gone for real.

When trouble arise, those beliefs and attitudes that were supressed by fear of social rejection, but also due to cultural hegemony of multiculturalism, start to stir in the population. Many people hold an ''inconsistent'' belief in multiculturalism. They believe in the equality of races (or sexes), but at the same time are keenly aware and know all the arguments for racism and they don't find them without temptation or ''common sense''. In the best circomstances, these temptations are completly, consciously or unconsciously depending on the individual, repressed, but in time of conflict, of fear, of high competition or thanks to the actions of a shameless leader, they become more and more powerful up to the point where a person that defended race equality can be found spouting racist ''dogwistle'' or making downright racist comments/actions.

In addition to this very personnal and individual vision of racism, our society structures and history is clearly marked by a long period of institutionalised racism that profoundly affect groups in a large scale. While people, or insitutions are not nearly as racist as they used to be, social and cultural structures are still vastly designed to support and express a racist wordview, creating problems of systemic discrimination.

In my opinion, the American society isn't much different than the Canadian one when it comes to racism. I don't believe that most or even a significant portion of American are racist. I would say that around 10% of them could qualify for that title, but I do believe that a majority of Americans can be tempted and swayed to join those 10% in the proper circomstances.

The power of the overly vocal minority.
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27-09-2017, 01:22 PM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2017 01:35 PM by BikerDude.)
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
(27-09-2017 01:16 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(27-09-2017 12:20 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  As I said, this isn't racism. It's learned behavior.

Racism is learned behavior too.

No one is born hating someone for the color of their skin. They're taught that.

Just like conditioning can make someone of color afraid of the police.

And yet every society teaches racism in one form or another.
I have really come to view it as it is sometimes called. "A mental virus".
I almost have to view it as something very nearly innate in humans.
Somehow tied to our tribalism. Which is basically a pack instinct.
When conditions are right it flairs up. It doesn't matter where or when.
I don't see any reason to think it is going anywhere.
IMO the fix is to fix the underlying conditions that fan the flames.

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27-09-2017, 01:31 PM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2017 01:56 PM by BikerDude.)
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
(27-09-2017 01:18 PM)epronovost Wrote:  I don't believe that most or even a significant portion of American are racist. I would say that around 10% of them could qualify for that title, but I do believe that a majority of Americans can be tempted and swayed to join those 10% in the proper circomstances.

I think it's more like around 90% in all societies.
But it's not the overt kind. More like a general preference.
And that's all it takes to get things up and running.
Pretty soon the minorities end up on the short end of the stick.
And that starts a little spark that can break out into a full on blaze if things get bad enough.
Those that are tempted or swayed had the virus all along.
It was just waiting to erupt into boils and fever.

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27-09-2017, 01:34 PM
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
(27-09-2017 01:19 PM)wazzel Wrote:  I don't need your sympathy either.

I never meant to imply what I was saying would be easy, because it is not.

You have it anyway.
You say difficult. I say impossible.
I hope you are right and I'm wrong.
Best of luck.

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27-09-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
(27-09-2017 01:11 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Situations can change your perception and I totally understand that.

What other people have does not bother me, it never has. It is just the way I am wired.

A sense of social justice makes that impossible IMO.

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27-09-2017, 01:54 PM
RE: Racism in the US - how bad is it?
(27-09-2017 01:22 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(27-09-2017 01:16 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Racism is learned behavior too.

No one is born hating someone for the color of their skin. They're taught that.

Just like conditioning can make someone of color afraid of the police.

And yet every society teaches racism in one form or another.
I have really come to view it as it is sometimes called. "A mental virus".
I almost have to view it as something very nearly innate in humans.
Somehow tied to our tribalism. Which is basically a pack instinct.
When conditions are right it flairs up. It doesn't matter where or when.
I don't see any reason to think it is going anywhere.

So this makes it ok?

Especially since the internet, we are becoming a more global society rather than city/state/nations...It's a painfully slow process though.

This shakes up the complacent ideals, especially in those who are already a little racist (no matter how much they claim not to be). We all have to live on this planet, I think it's time we all made more efforts to get along. More schools today have multicultural clubs than ever before, and children are being taught to celebrate diversity. It's the home and other areas where things truly get sticky.

Hatred it taught, much like love it's not innate. Fear is innate and can be manipulated and we've learned it's easy to do.

It's the whole once bitten twice shy thing.

Going back to LDH's comments about how white people rarely seemed to resist arrest it's because white people traditionally have been taught that "police are your friends" and they (because of being white) haven't anything to really fear from the police as group.

Other races aren't that fortunate, they have watched people of their color mistreated time and again and in many cases they feel they've been mistreated.

That (African American) guy who was shot, the one who told the officer he was carrying and had a permit, his wife was beside him in the car (children in the backseat), and what floored me honestly was how calm she remained, calling the officer Sir and speaking very calmly to the cop. That cop got off too at his trial. The NRA remained very silent on that case; they should have been all over (since the dude had a conceal carry permit) that shit.

No way could I have remained that calm with a dead body beside me.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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