Racism is alive and well.
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12-07-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: Racism is alive and well.
(12-07-2016 10:37 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 09:14 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Either way, it's stereotyping. I think the people with their pants halfway down look like idiots, but they are not all gang members or thugs. "Don't judge a book by its cover." And if you've been reading other posts in this thread, there are several examples of well-dressed, well-educated people being hassled by police or TSA (or being denied jobs) simply because of their skin color. It does happen. Racism exists, whether or not you believe it.

Actually, in your example, I would be less afraid of the people with their pants halfway down, because I can outrun them if I have to -- can't run worth shit with your pants halfway down.

Laugh out load

But bullets go a hell of a lot faster than you can ever run.

I thought of that, but -- if they have guns and are willing to use them, crossing the street isn't going to do you any good either.

Big Grin
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15-07-2016, 01:41 AM
RE: Racism is alive and well.
(12-07-2016 06:18 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(08-07-2016 11:38 PM)oneofshibumi Wrote:  Vosur, I believe you are correct, Sanders did say, “When you’re white, you don’t know what it’s like to be living in a ghetto. You don’t know what it’s like to be poor. You don’t know what it’s like to be hassled when you walk down the street or you get dragged out of a car.” During the Democratic debate in Flint, MI, Sanders did make that statement. Factually, he is wrong since more Whites live in poverty than African-Americans. More Whites are on welfare than African-Americans, etc. And it has been that way since I was born, in 1959.

However, to be fair and place the sentences in context one needs to read the transcript. The whole paragraph prior to “White don’t know ghetto” statement, talks about the African American experiences which he has heard from members of Black Lives Matter Organization. Within that context, within those changes in context, the boundaries of the statement turn out to be quite different from what you are insinuating. While you can be White living in poverty, police do not hassle Whites, in the same way they hassle African-Americans (and those who look African-American). So I disagree, that Sanders and Trump are comparable racists.

Fox News and other right-wing commentators tried to paint Sanders as a racist, but they can only do that by providing sentences without context. Trump has been a racist since the mid-80s. Even adding context to Trumps words and he still is racist. And Trump has shown himself to be racist in many occasions, and when asked to clarify, rarely does he walk back, most frequently he repeats the racist comment, or he doubles down on it.

We are in disagreement that Sanders and Trump are both racist. You have not convinced me that Sanders is racist. One comment does not make a racist, especially when context clarifies the statement. Trump cannot or will not clarify his statements, and has a 30+ year history of saying and acting as a racist.

I say you are wrong. Police do not intentionally hassle black people. Go dress yourself in the baggy pants and have them droop to the bottom of your ass cheaks (like a two year old with an over filled diaper) while wearing a hoodie pulled over your face. Even if you are white, you will get hassled. There is a reason for police to target people dressed like that. Most of them either want to pretend they are gang members and drug dealers and many actually are. If someone is dressed like that, most likely they are armed and quite possibly have drugs on them. If you are walking down the street in Newark NJ and on one side you see a group of black people in ordinary clothing that fits and on the other are a bunch of white guys dressed as I described. Which ones are you going to avoid and which ones are you going to walk near? Myself, I am going to cross the road and walk by the black people. The ones dressed like thugs are either a bunch of posers that think they are ghetto black or they are actual thugs and won't think twice about robbing and killing someone that walks by. Think about it people, it is not even usually racism.

Well, if I am to believe you are correct but then I read about Earl Simpson in headlines like, “Florida police accused of racial profiling after stopping man 258 times, charging him with trespassing at work” what should I believe? Should I believe that police only harass badly dressed hood rat? I know by personal experience that is not true. I know some people who became police officers did so for the power, which they tend to abuse. Some do it because they want to legally kill people.



What should I believe when I know that police kill 5 times more Blacks than Whites? What should I believe when for years White media pundits have claimed that police racism was a myth, then when technology permits everyone who has a mobile phone to record the actions of police. All of a sudden we see hundreds of examples of police misconduct that people like Birdguy1979 deny, or attempt to justify. Birdguy1979, I can understand that this phenomenon (police misconduct and abuse against African Americans) is new for you, but for most African American it is just a confirmation of what we have said for decades. Grievances dismissed by Republicans, and by many White Americans. Jerks are found among all races, but inordinate number of African Americans received the bullet.


More importantly, I live in Chicago, where the Chicago Police Department (CPD) has long history of murder, torture, and no accountability. We could start with Jon Graham Burge who tortured over 200 criminal suspects between 1972 and 1991.


Chicago Police Accountability Task Force Report
A task force assigned by Mayor Rahm Emanuel of Chicago has found racism and systemic failures in the city's police force, validating complaints made for years by African-American residents. APRIL 13, 2016


And more recently, we had the “shooting of Laquan McDonald occurred on October 20, 2014 in Chicago, Illinois, when McDonald—a 17-year-old black male armed with a 3-inch (76 mm) knife—was shot 16 times in 13 seconds by Chicago Police Officer Jason Van Dyke from approximately ten feet (3 m) away.” Activist organized hard to put pressure on the legal system to make public the recordings. Even though the Police Department and the Prosecutor’s Office said that the shooting was justified. Van Dyke is now facing 1st Degree Murder indictments, his fellow officers face disciplinary hearings for falsifying their reports, and many other illegal actions.


'I sat in that place for three days, man': Chicagoans detail abusive confinement inside police 'black site' (Chicago papers will not print the story.) The group informed the Guardian (UK paper). Police used torture tactics in Chicago’s very own Black Site.



Black GOP senator gives powerful speech on racial profiling: 'I have felt the anger'
Emily Cahn
Jul 14th 2016 12:50PM


As for the motivations to become a police officer, there have been many articles written about the political personality types of the police. One of the most influential is the 1972 work, The Police Personality: Fact or Fiction by Robert Balch. He explores several questions in an effort to crystallize the various arguments in the research on police psychology: are authoritarian personality types more likely to choose police work as a profession? Are police more or less likely to have authoritarian personality types than the general public? Does being a police officer exacerbate authoritarian impulses?

On the topic of authoritarianism and police, Balch summarized one of the main veins of thinking from the literature at that time:

a. Conventionalism: rigid adherence to conventional, middle-class values.

b. Authoritarian Submission: submissive, uncritical attitude toward idealized moral authorities of the ingroup.

c. Authoritarian Aggression: tendency to be on the lookout for, and to condemn, reject, and punish people who violate conventional values.

d. Anti-intraception: opposition to the subjective, the imaginative, the tender-minded.

e. Superstition and Stereotypy: the belief in mystical determinants of the individual's fate; the disposition to think in rigid categories.

f. Power and "toughness": preoccupation with the dominance-submission, strong-weak, leader-follower dimension; identification with power figures; overemphasis upon the conventionalized attributes of the ego; exaggerated assertion of strength and toughness.

g. Destructiveness and Cynicism: generalized hostility, vilification of the human.

h. Projectivity: The disposition to believe that wild and dangerous things go on in the world; the projection outwards of unconscious emotional impulses.

i. Sex: Exaggerated concern with sexual "goings on."


Balch highlighted the following quotes from interviews with police at that time:

If people in general are no good, then "coons" and "spics" are worse. All they like to do is drink, make love, and collect their welfare checks: "These scum aren't people; they're animals in a jungle....Hitler had the right idea...."

He continues his summary:

Several other traits are frequently but less consistently used to describe the typical policeman. Police officers supposedly distrust ivory-tower intellectuals and bleeding-heart humanitarians. A good policeman is a realist who learns by experience and not by reading books. He respects authority and knows how to take orders. He likes to give orders too, and he demands respect from juveniles, criminals, and minorities.



As for conscious motivations police officers the following are reasons cited in the literature: To make society better; to have an exciting job; to hide behind the badge; power; and military continuation.

The evidence shows racism in police departments in the same way their is racism in American society. Black Lives Matter came into existence because too many times American society reacts as if they aren't.

Respectfully,

Daniel
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15-07-2016, 05:54 AM
RE: Racism is alive and well.
(15-07-2016 01:41 AM)oneofshibumi Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 06:18 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I say you are wrong. Police do not intentionally hassle black people. Go dress yourself in the baggy pants and have them droop to the bottom of your ass cheaks (like a two year old with an over filled diaper) while wearing a hoodie pulled over your face. Even if you are white, you will get hassled. There is a reason for police to target people dressed like that. Most of them either want to pretend they are gang members and drug dealers and many actually are. If someone is dressed like that, most likely they are armed and quite possibly have drugs on them. If you are walking down the street in Newark NJ and on one side you see a group of black people in ordinary clothing that fits and on the other are a bunch of white guys dressed as I described. Which ones are you going to avoid and which ones are you going to walk near? Myself, I am going to cross the road and walk by the black people. The ones dressed like thugs are either a bunch of posers that think they are ghetto black or they are actual thugs and won't think twice about robbing and killing someone that walks by. Think about it people, it is not even usually racism.

Well, if I am to believe you are correct but then I read about Earl Simpson in headlines like, “Florida police accused of racial profiling after stopping man 258 times, charging him with trespassing at work” what should I believe? Should I believe that police only harass badly dressed hood rat? I know by personal experience that is not true. I know some people who became police officers did so for the power, which they tend to abuse. Some do it because they want to legally kill people.



What should I believe when I know that police kill 5 times more Blacks than Whites? What should I believe when for years White media pundits have claimed that police racism was a myth, then when technology permits everyone who has a mobile phone to record the actions of police. All of a sudden we see hundreds of examples of police misconduct that people like Birdguy1979 deny, or attempt to justify. Birdguy1979, I can understand that this phenomenon (police misconduct and abuse against African Americans) is new for you, but for most African American it is just a confirmation of what we have said for decades. Grievances dismissed by Republicans, and by many White Americans. Jerks are found among all races, but inordinate number of African Americans received the bullet.


More importantly, I live in Chicago, where the Chicago Police Department (CPD) has long history of murder, torture, and no accountability. We could start with Jon Graham Burge who tortured over 200 criminal suspects between 1972 and 1991.


Chicago Police Accountability Task Force Report
A task force assigned by Mayor Rahm Emanuel of Chicago has found racism and systemic failures in the city's police force, validating complaints made for years by African-American residents. APRIL 13, 2016


And more recently, we had the “shooting of Laquan McDonald occurred on October 20, 2014 in Chicago, Illinois, when McDonald—a 17-year-old black male armed with a 3-inch (76 mm) knife—was shot 16 times in 13 seconds by Chicago Police Officer Jason Van Dyke from approximately ten feet (3 m) away.” Activist organized hard to put pressure on the legal system to make public the recordings. Even though the Police Department and the Prosecutor’s Office said that the shooting was justified. Van Dyke is now facing 1st Degree Murder indictments, his fellow officers face disciplinary hearings for falsifying their reports, and many other illegal actions.


'I sat in that place for three days, man': Chicagoans detail abusive confinement inside police 'black site' (Chicago papers will not print the story.) The group informed the Guardian (UK paper). Police used torture tactics in Chicago’s very own Black Site.



Black GOP senator gives powerful speech on racial profiling: 'I have felt the anger'
Emily Cahn
Jul 14th 2016 12:50PM


As for the motivations to become a police officer, there have been many articles written about the political personality types of the police. One of the most influential is the 1972 work, The Police Personality: Fact or Fiction by Robert Balch. He explores several questions in an effort to crystallize the various arguments in the research on police psychology: are authoritarian personality types more likely to choose police work as a profession? Are police more or less likely to have authoritarian personality types than the general public? Does being a police officer exacerbate authoritarian impulses?

On the topic of authoritarianism and police, Balch summarized one of the main veins of thinking from the literature at that time:

a. Conventionalism: rigid adherence to conventional, middle-class values.

b. Authoritarian Submission: submissive, uncritical attitude toward idealized moral authorities of the ingroup.

c. Authoritarian Aggression: tendency to be on the lookout for, and to condemn, reject, and punish people who violate conventional values.

d. Anti-intraception: opposition to the subjective, the imaginative, the tender-minded.

e. Superstition and Stereotypy: the belief in mystical determinants of the individual's fate; the disposition to think in rigid categories.

f. Power and "toughness": preoccupation with the dominance-submission, strong-weak, leader-follower dimension; identification with power figures; overemphasis upon the conventionalized attributes of the ego; exaggerated assertion of strength and toughness.

g. Destructiveness and Cynicism: generalized hostility, vilification of the human.

h. Projectivity: The disposition to believe that wild and dangerous things go on in the world; the projection outwards of unconscious emotional impulses.

i. Sex: Exaggerated concern with sexual "goings on."


Balch highlighted the following quotes from interviews with police at that time:

If people in general are no good, then "coons" and "spics" are worse. All they like to do is drink, make love, and collect their welfare checks: "These scum aren't people; they're animals in a jungle....Hitler had the right idea...."

He continues his summary:

Several other traits are frequently but less consistently used to describe the typical policeman. Police officers supposedly distrust ivory-tower intellectuals and bleeding-heart humanitarians. A good policeman is a realist who learns by experience and not by reading books. He respects authority and knows how to take orders. He likes to give orders too, and he demands respect from juveniles, criminals, and minorities.



As for conscious motivations police officers the following are reasons cited in the literature: To make society better; to have an exciting job; to hide behind the badge; power; and military continuation.

The evidence shows racism in police departments in the same way their is racism in American society. Black Lives Matter came into existence because too many times American society reacts as if they aren't.

Respectfully,

Daniel

Not all are racially based. I will admit that some are. Of course that probably goes both ways. There are some white cops that have killed black people simply because they could or thought they could, there are more than likely a fair share of black cops that have shot white people because they could. My point being that most of the ones being shot are the ones refusing to show their hands and/or reaching into their clothing reaching for something. I am sorry, but if I have a gun and it is attached to my side is it useful at all? If I wait to see if that is a gun you are reaching for, is there a high risk that you will shoot first because I gave you the chance? Yes there is. You have to put yourself in the situation. If you pull your gun and shoot someone that is resisting (especially if it is a "minority") and it turns out they were reaching for a phone, you will be called a racist. If you don't pull your weapon because (you know there are not a ton of black people that hate cops) and the guy shoots you, the guy gets away with it. He will just blame you and say he is scared of white people.
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15-07-2016, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2016 03:39 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Racism is alive and well.
(15-07-2016 05:54 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(15-07-2016 01:41 AM)oneofshibumi Wrote:  Well, if I am to believe you are correct but then I read

Not all are racially based. I will admit that some are. Of course that probably goes both ways. There are some white cops that have killed black people simply because they could or thought they could, there are more than likely a fair share of black cops that have shot white people because they could.

Yeah. You're gonna have to back that up.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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