Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
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12-01-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
(11-01-2015 03:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Looking at both sides of the equation.
1. Some black people open carrying as protection against the police.
2. People that just want a safe society.

Addressing item 2. Lots of people see the police as a necessary component of society, to help protect people and make society safe. They would see people carrying guns for the specific purpose of confronting police as a major threat to public safety.

Wait. What?

How did you get to "the specific purpose of confronting police"?

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12-01-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
There is nothing surprising about Conservatives being offended and/or scared by seeing someone they don't identify with holding a mirror up to themselves.

The Tea Party and the Far Right have become a harbinger for racist ideologies that have become encapsulated in their political rhetoric. Then, when this is challenged, they are quick to try and either claim to be "colorblind" which is an extreme measure to simply avoid race issues while also ignoring white privilege, or they attempt to claim that the racism is actually from the minorities towards whites. It takes a lot of balls or a lot less brains to try and make either point seriously.


As for the pros and cons on guns, we've gone round and round on this before in several threads. The simple facts are that the statistics on guns don't uphold the idea that they make you any safer. Instead, the statistics show that households with a gun are more likely to result in injury or death of a family member or suicide than they are likely to result in the use of self-defense against home invasion or attack.

When any person of age, regardless of their mental state or intellectual level, can buy a gun and ammunition, you are going to have irresponsible use of them. If someone uses a tool irresponsibly, they will probably just hurt themselves. If someone uses a car irresponsibly, they could hurt other people. That is part of the reason we regulate cars and drivers so heavily. Now, why don't we regulate guns in the same manner?

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12-01-2015, 09:09 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
Based on the reaction (overreaction?) to this PSA, it seems to have struck a nerve among some of the, shall we say, more insecure and defensive gun advocates. (Note that I see the gun advocates here as responsible and not particularly insecure (Oh noes, Obama's gonna take my guns!) or defensive (Guns don't kill people, bullets do.) but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them proved me wrong.) Tongue




#sigh
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12-01-2015, 09:13 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
(12-01-2015 08:50 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There is nothing surprising about Conservatives being offended and/or scared by seeing someone they don't identify with holding a mirror up to themselves.

The Tea Party and the Far Right have become a harbinger for racist ideologies that have become encapsulated in their political rhetoric. Then, when this is challenged, they are quick to try and either claim to be "colorblind" which is an extreme measure to simply avoid race issues while also ignoring white privilege, or they attempt to claim that the racism is actually from the minorities towards whites. It takes a lot of balls or a lot less brains to try and make either point seriously.


As for the pros and cons on guns, we've gone round and round on this before in several threads. The simple facts are that the statistics on guns don't uphold the idea that they make you any safer. Instead, the statistics show that households with a gun are more likely to result in injury or death of a family member or suicide than they are likely to result in the use of self-defense against home invasion or attack.

This is the fallacy of applying statistics to individuals. If every gun owner had been required to have training, to have had a background check, etc. then the statistics would be quite different.

It is not having a gun that makes these things more likely, it is that the negative consequences are more likely for people who shouldn't have had the gun in the first place.

Quote:When any person of age, regardless of their mental state or intellectual level, can buy a gun and ammunition, you are going to have irresponsible use of them.

Not legally.

Quote:If someone uses a tool irresponsibly, they will probably just hurt themselves. If someone uses a car irresponsibly, they could hurt other people. That is part of the reason we regulate cars and drivers so heavily. Now, why don't we regulate guns in the same manner?

In some places, we do.

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12-01-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
(12-01-2015 09:09 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Based on the reaction (overreaction?) to this PSA, it seems to have struck a nerve among some of the, shall we say, more insecure and defensive gun advocates. (Note that I see the gun advocates here as responsible and not particularly insecure (Oh noes, Obama's gonna take my guns!) or defensive (Guns don't kill people, bullets do.) but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them proved me wrong.) Tongue




That "PSA" was fucking stupid. How did Ms. Sincic think this was a good idea?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/antigunpsa.asp

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12-01-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
(12-01-2015 09:09 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Based on the reaction (overreaction?) to this PSA, it seems to have struck a nerve among some of the, shall we say, more insecure and defensive gun advocates. (Note that I see the gun advocates here as responsible and not particularly insecure (Oh noes, Obama's gonna take my guns!) or defensive (Guns don't kill people, bullets do.) but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them proved me wrong.) Tongue




Terrible ad.

Kid is guilty of theft, illegal possession of a firearm, illegal transportation of a firearm, and illegal transfer of a firearm.

The teacher is guilty of receiving stolen property and, if unlicensed, llegal possession of a firearm, etc.

The parent was guilty of stupidity and, in many jurisdictions, illegal storage of a firearm.

No one in this video looks good. No

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12-01-2015, 09:19 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
"This is the fallacy of applying statistics to individuals. If every gun owner had been required to have training, to have had a background check, etc. then the statistics would be quite different.

It is not having a gun that makes these things more likely, it is that the negative consequences are more likely for people who shouldn't have had the gun in the first place."


Come on Chas, don't try and bullshit me here.

There is no such thing as a fallacy of applying statistics to the individuals. The statistics describe what has happened, they are a description of past data.

But yes, if we had better regulations and controls on guns and gun owners such that we knew gun owners were better trained and mentally capable, the statistics would be different. Which is why we should change gun laws and regulations to try and do that.

"Not legally. "

Legality isn't of much use when the person already has the gun, and purchased it legally.

"In some places, we do."

It is the "some" that is bothersome. It should be everywhere.

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12-01-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
(12-01-2015 09:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  No one in this video looks good. No

I'm not at all sure that wasn't precisely the point.

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12-01-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
(12-01-2015 09:19 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "This is the fallacy of applying statistics to individuals. If every gun owner had been required to have training, to have had a background check, etc. then the statistics would be quite different.

It is not having a gun that makes these things more likely, it is that the negative consequences are more likely for people who shouldn't have had the gun in the first place."


Come on Chas, don't try and bullshit me here.

There is no such thing as a fallacy of applying statistics to the individuals. The statistics describe what has happened, they are a description of past data.

My behavior is not governed by the statistical behavior of the population of all gun owners, so saying that those statistics apply to me is fallacious.
Statistics apply to populations, not individuals.

Quote:But yes, if we had better regulations and controls on guns and gun owners such that we knew gun owners were better trained and mentally capable, the statistics would be different. Which is why we should change gun laws and regulations to try and do that.

"Not legally. "

Legality isn't of much use when the person already has the gun, and purchased it legally.

What? Do you mean the legal owner becomes unhinged?

Quote:"In some places, we do."

It is the "some" that is bothersome. It should be everywhere.

Yes, the "some" is very bothersome. It needs to be addressed.

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12-01-2015, 09:30 AM
RE: Racist Conservative Gun Nuts Getting A Taste Of Their Own Medicine
"My behavior is not governed by the statistical behavior of the population of all gun owners, so saying that those statistics apply to me is fallacious.
Statistics apply to populations, not individuals."


Which is why I said " Instead, the statistics show that households with a gun are more likely to result in injury or death of a family member or suicide than they are likely to result in the use of self-defense against home invasion or attack."

That is a description of the observed data. I am not using it as a predictor. What can be said however is that given the amount of data, and the amount of time we have been collecting data, there is no reason to expect the trend to change in the future if nothing changes in terms of policies affecting it. That doesn't make any individual more or less likely to hurt someone or kill someone, but it does mean that in 10 years if nothing changes, we should expect the statistics to show us similar numbers.

I know statistics well enough to know how to utilize them

"What? Do you mean the legal owner becomes unhinged?"

No, but if you don't have any regulations on the individual gun owner before they are in possession of the gun, it doesn't matter if they have legally attained it. They are not equipped from a training perspective to responsibly use the firearm. That and there are numerous ways to get around the laws as they currently are. I can buy from an individual, have someone buy it for me, get it as a gift, inheritance, gun shows, etc.

"Yes, the "some" is very bothersome. It needs to be addressed."

We tend to always agree on that point.

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