Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
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15-03-2017, 02:12 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(14-03-2017 05:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Dr H

It's less than number of people that voted for Clinton.
<shrug> By a couple of million. Still, more than 46% of the popular vote went to Trump. One of the problems of a democratic system is that in a close race, essentially half the population is going to get screwed.

Quote:About voters - not all of them are capitalists, which shows that not only capitalists are against regulations; working class can be against something on national ground just as well.
Not all voters are capitalists in the sense of being fanatical devotees of the philosophies of Adam Smith. But we are all living in a society essentially run by a capitalist economy, and we all participate to some extent in that economy -- even anarchists, like me. I don't necessarily have to like that fact, but I can't really deny it.

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16-03-2017, 01:22 AM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(15-03-2017 02:12 PM)Dr H Wrote:  <shrug> By a couple of million. Still, more than 46% of the popular vote went to Trump. One of the problems of a democratic system is that in a close race, essentially half the population is going to get screwed.

It's still less, which shows that over half of the voting population don't agree with his ideas.


Quote:Not all voters are capitalists in the sense of being fanatical devotees of the philosophies of Adam Smith. But we are all living in a society essentially run by a capitalist economy, and we all participate to some extent in that economy -- even anarchists, like me. I don't necessarily have to like that fact, but I can't really deny it.

Not all voters are capitalists in sense of being capitalists, not working class.

To the further part - yes.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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16-03-2017, 02:01 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(16-03-2017 01:22 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's still less, which shows that over half of the voting population don't agree with his ideas.
Hayes, Harrison, and Bush also lost the popular vote, but were nonetheless elected president. Bush for two terms. It's not unusual to have a sizeable segment of the population disagree with the choice of president. It isn't significant unless they are able to successfully organize to oppose his policies.

Quote:Not all voters are capitalists in sense of being capitalists, not working class.
That's kinda what I was saying.

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16-03-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(16-03-2017 02:01 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Hayes, Harrison, and Bush also lost the popular vote, but were nonetheless elected president. Bush for two terms. It's not unusual to have a sizeable segment of the population disagree with the choice of president. It isn't significant unless they are able to successfully organize to oppose his policies.

Whether people are capable of opposing policies or not fact that half the country did not found Trump to it's liking is pretty significant.

Quote:That's kinda what I was saying.

Not exactly. One can be unaware of Adam Smith and be pro capitalism, just like one can know his ideas and be against them.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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16-03-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(16-03-2017 02:20 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Whether people are capable of opposing policies or not fact that half the country did not found Trump to it's liking is pretty significant.
Why? Why is it any more significant than with any other president who had a large segment of the populace find him not to their liking?

Quote:Not exactly. One can be unaware of Adam Smith and be pro capitalism, just like one can know his ideas and be against them.
Sure, just as one can be unaware of Karl Marx and be pro communism -- and yet communists as a group are often characterized as "Marxists". The meaning is usually understood colloquially, even when not meant literally. <shrug> Neither here nor there.


But I'm curious as to why you think it's especially significant that a lot of people don't happen to like Trump? This is not the first time in the history of the US that a president was put in place by electoral vote after losing a plurality of the popular vote. Nor is it the first time a president has been wildly unpopular, and yet most of those presidents served out their terms, and many were elected to second terms.

The exception being Nixon, but that was more a result of his botched Watergate cover-up providing ammunition for his political enemies, of which he had made many.

People protest presidential policies all the time, and most of the time little comes of it. At the federal building in my town there was a protest of one sort or another against presidential and federal polities every day during the Clinton, Bush, and Obama years. (Probably during the Reagan years as well, but I wasn't paying as close attention back then.)

Random protests make the news, but they don't often change policy. General voter dissatisfaction changes it even less often.

Organized, consistent, directed protest can be another matter, but we don't have that yet with Trump.

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16-03-2017, 08:08 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(14-03-2017 05:23 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(14-03-2017 04:45 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Still, nearly 63 million people voted for Trump... nearly half the voting population went for Trump.

The vast majority of eligible voters - something like 219 million - either voted against him or didn't vote at all.

That means Trump got the support of less than 1 in 3 eligible voters.
The ones who didn't vote disqualified themselves from consideration; you can't count them as for or against Trump.

Quote:He's has no mandate. He's a fake president.
Nothing in the Constitution or in any federal law says you need a "mandate" to be president; all you need are 270 electoral votes.
Under that system, he is the president; best to deal with it.

You don't like it; I don't like it. I don't like the system that put him there, and maybe you don't like it either.
So, support efforts to change it; I do. But it's unproductive to pretend that he's not the president.
You have to choose your battles.

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17-03-2017, 01:46 AM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(16-03-2017 07:58 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Why? Why is it any more significant than with any other president who had a large segment of the populace find him not to their liking?

Did I say that this is more significant that with any other president?

Quote:Sure, just as one can be unaware of Karl Marx and be pro communism -- and yet communists as a group are often characterized as "Marxists". The meaning is usually understood colloquially, even when not meant literally. <shrug> Neither here nor there.

Often? Maybe, but I've never heard anyone using word capitalist to describe someone who is pro capitalism. It's bizarre idea for me, one which can result in calling average Joe working in McDonald's capitalist.

Quote:But I'm curious as to why you think it's especially significant that a lot of people don't happen to like Trump?

It is significant cause large number of people didn't bought his bullshit. They may not be able to oppose his policies but they see clearly enough to choose better person next time. If Electoral College don't fuck things up that is.

Quote:This is not the first time in the history of the US that a president was put in place by electoral vote after losing a plurality of the popular vote. Nor is it the first time a president has been wildly unpopular, and yet most of those presidents served out their terms, and many were elected to second terms.

The exception being Nixon, but that was more a result of his botched Watergate cover-up providing ammunition for his political enemies, of which he had made many.

So?

Quote:People protest presidential policies all the time, and most of the time little comes of it. At the federal building in my town there was a protest of one sort or another against presidential and federal polities every day during the Clinton, Bush, and Obama years. (Probably during the Reagan years as well, but I wasn't paying as close attention back then.)

Random protests make the news, but they don't often change policy. General voter dissatisfaction changes it even less often.

Organized, consistent, directed protest can be another matter, but we don't have that yet with Trump.

For me not being blinded with nationalism and in effect not buying into slogans like "make America great again" is significant in and itself; fact that there are people who could, even if only potentially oppose policies of clowns matters. To me at least.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-03-2017, 05:23 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(17-03-2017 01:46 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Did I say that this is more significant that with any other president?
No, you didn't. But you seem to think it's important, and I was wondering why.

Quote:Often? Maybe, but I've never heard anyone using word capitalist to describe someone who is pro capitalism. It's bizarre idea for me, one which can result in calling average Joe working in McDonald's capitalist.
OK, I see your point.

But really, anyone participating in a system where they practice private ownership of goods and/or property, labor for monetary wages, and exchange their earnings for goods in a theoretically "free marketplace" is technically a "capitalist" in the broad sense of the term.

I suppose it's more usual -- or at least it used to be -- to use the term primarily to refer to well-healed industrialists manipulating capital directly for its own sake.

Quote:It is significant cause large number of people didn't bought his bullshit. They may not be able to oppose his policies but they see clearly enough to choose better person next time. If Electoral College don't fuck things up that is.
Well then, it's really no more significant than the fact that there were 51 million people who voted for Al Gore and only 50 million for Bush. Or that there were 61 million who voted for Romney and 65 million for Obama in 2012. Like I said, the problem with democracy is that in a close race essentially half the voting population ends up getting screwed. A couple million one way or the other out of 120 million is a quibble.

And those people who don't buy into Trump's bullshit can oppose his policies, but they have to get off their duffs and do it:

Contact your Representative and Senator.

I've met with several of mine over the years, and gotten advice from them on how to make effective contacts:

Congresscritters tend to think in terms of the numbers of voting constituents. When you contact them, you represent a vote when they run for re-election -- if they can make you happy. But since most people don't ever bother to contact their reps, most of them have a formula that they use to estimate how many voters may be represented by a particular mode of contact. On average, your Congressperson/Senator will assume that:

* Each email represents the opinion of as many as 3-5 voters
* Each hard copy (paper) letter represents 10-25 voters
* Each phone call represents 20-50 voters[1]
* Each visit to their office (staff) represents 50-100 voters
* Each request for a personal visit with the representative him/herself represents up to 500 voters


* Paper petitions, with verifiable signatures, can be very effective.
Each signer is seen as potentially representative of the views of 4 or 5 other people in the community.

- Internet petitions are essentially worthless.
Signatories are generally unverifiable, and it's too easy to fake a lot of phantom support.

- Tweets & Social Media comments are pretty much a waste of time.
Most Congresspeople don't have the time to read them, and if they do, they're likely to skip over most and read a randomly selected few. Someday this may change, but thus far this mode carries negligible weight.

[1] Don't underestimate the power of the direct phone call. Besides carrying voter weight, they demand immediate time and attention. Even though they get fielded by office staff, a dozen organized people calling on a regular basis can really bog down the office; as few as 20 or so, calling daily, can bring an office to a virtual standstill.

Quote:So?
So my point is, it's not especially significant that a lot of voters don't happen to like Trump; that's pretty much the case after every presidential election.

If they want to be significant, they have to organize and actually do something.

Quote:For me not being blinded with nationalism and in effect not buying into slogans like "make America great again" is significant in and itself; fact that there are people who could, even if only potentially oppose policies of clowns matters. To me at least.
It's a start.

But complaining by itself accomplishes nothing. Focusing those complaints into some sort of action could potentially accomplish much.
But most Americans typically won't get that involved unless they're pushed to real extremes.

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Dr H

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18-03-2017, 01:46 AM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(17-03-2017 05:23 PM)Dr H Wrote:  No, you didn't. But you seem to think it's important, and I was wondering why.

Already answered this one.

Quote:OK, I see your point.

But really, anyone participating in a system where they practice private ownership of goods and/or property, labor for monetary wages, and exchange their earnings for goods in a theoretically "free marketplace" is technically a "capitalist" in the broad sense of the term.

I suppose it's more usual -- or at least it used to be -- to use the term primarily to refer to well-healed industrialists manipulating capital directly for its own sake.

It's still bizarre idea for me. Using it to describe someone working in supermarket boggles my mind.

Quote:Well then, it's really no more significant than the fact that there were 51 million people who voted for Al Gore and only 50 million for Bush. Or that there were 61 million who voted for Romney and 65 million for Obama in 2012. Like I said, the problem with democracy is that in a close race essentially half the voting population ends up getting screwed. A couple million one way or the other out of 120 million is a quibble.

This being no more significant does not mean that it is insignificant. It's better for a country if less people subscribe to such foolish ideas as nationalism I would say.

Quote:And those people who don't buy into Trump's bullshit can oppose his policies, but they have to get off their duffs and do it:

Maybe they even do it it if they deem situation aggravated enough for warrant such actions.

Quote:So my point is, it's not especially significant that a lot of voters don't happen to like Trump; that's pretty much the case after every presidential election.

If they want to be significant, they have to organize and actually do something.

It seems that will won't agree on this one. And marches can be counted as doing something. It may be not effective thing but it is still a something.

Quote:It's a start.

But complaining by itself accomplishes nothing. Focusing those complaints into some sort of action could potentially accomplish much.
But most Americans typically won't get that involved unless they're pushed to real extremes.

It's (small) victory - not ascribing to outdated notions of nationalism is good way too see faults of one country and not support whatever policies clowns will deem necessary to make x great again.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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20-03-2017, 07:56 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(18-03-2017 01:46 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  This being no more significant does not mean that it is insignificant.
<shrug> OK, I guess.

Quote:It's better for a country if less people subscribe to such foolish ideas as nationalism I would say.
Nationalism has always been popular among a certain segment of the American public. It's so pervasive that a lot of people who wouldn't describe themselves as "nationalists" are still affected by it.


Quote:Maybe they even do it it if they deem situation aggravated enough for warrant such actions.
It's really more effective to take steps before things get to that point, but you're right -- most people won't, until they feel like they have no other choice.

Quote:It seems that will won't agree on this one. And marches can be counted as doing something. It may be not effective thing but it is still a something.
That surprises me, a little. You agree that it's significant that maybe half of American voters don't like Trump, but you don't agree that they ought to organize and try do to something more effective about it than bitch?

Or have I misread your comment?

Quote:It's (small) victory - not ascribing to outdated notions of nationalism is good way too see faults of one country and not support whatever policies clowns will deem necessary to make x great again.
Well, "victory" is an optimistic way to see it. It's like the "victory" of not waving a flag on July 4th, when everyone else is. Doesn't really have much impact.

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