Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
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09-03-2017, 10:07 AM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(09-03-2017 07:46 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(09-03-2017 07:36 AM)Billanja Wrote:  Merkel is just another remote-controlled puppet in the role of being the cancelor of Germany.

Chancellor. And who control her?

Quote:By the way, the USA isn't a democracy. A two-party political system is not seen as a valid democratical system by those who are real, actual democrats.

Real, actual democrats? No true Scotsman I guess.

Quote:It might be a republic of some sort, but democratic it ain't. About 5% of the world's population is only "represented" by two political partys? Yeah, got it.

Supposedly it is democratic cause it has free elections (or so Wikipedia tells me) but I couldn't care less.

Quote:And what is wrong with being a "former" KGB spook? Compared to Trump (and Hillary) Putin is like Einsteinsupermanmegamastermind compared to TwocreepswhoplayIwannabetheboss.

What is wrong with being former member of authoritarian state secret police? Nothing Rolleyes

Putin is just authoritarian clown, with quite dangerous ideas. See Marcel H. Van Herpen Putin's Wars: The Rise of Russia's New Imperialism.

1.) Merkel is controlled by her rigid habit to fold her hands in a strange and un-natural way. At least that is for sure.

2.) Real, actual democrats, definition (according to me): arguing for the agenda that every human being should have their basic needs met for free. Including basic and higher education. Only people who don't have to worry about survival, health and their community are free, willing and able to make accurate and well-informed deceicions on who should have what kind of positiion in a certain political system, which is in place to organize a community the way the members of that community want it to be organized.

3.) What does "free elections" in the case of the USA even mean? Serious question..

4.) I'm not a Putin fan. Nor am I a Putin opposer. I just think he knows some sh*t he wishes he wouldn't.


Anarchie, eh? Wouldn't that mean being the next step AFTER (true, real) democracy is in place and well established everywhere?
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09-03-2017, 10:22 AM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(09-03-2017 10:07 AM)Billanja Wrote:  1.) Merkel is controlled by her rigid habit to fold her hands in a strange and un-natural way. At least that is for sure.

Rolleyes

Quote:2.) Real, actual democrats, definition (according to me): arguing for the agenda that every human being should have their basic needs met for free. Including basic and higher education.

Higher education is hardly a basic need. And it has nothing to do with democracy.

Quote:Only people who don't have to worry about survival, health and their community are free, willing and able to make accurate and well-informed deceicions on who should have what kind of positiion in a certain political system, which is in place to organize a community the way the members of that community want it to be organized.

Poland has free education and more or less working socialized health service yet I wouldn't call voters decisions accurate or well-informed.

Voters don't get well informed and resistant to populist rhetoric just because they have University diploma or they feel safe.

Quote:3.) What does "free elections" in the case of the USA even mean? Serious question..

Same thing that in other countries.

Quote:4.) I'm not a Putin fan. Nor am I a Putin opposer. I just think he knows some sh*t he wishes he wouldn't.

Not living in Russia I can't do much to oppose Putin. I just think that he is a clown.

Quote:Anarchie, eh? Wouldn't that mean being the next step AFTER (true, real) democracy is in place and well established everywhere?

I'm not anarchist. I just like that one Bakunin quote.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-03-2017, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2017 10:58 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(08-03-2017 02:02 PM)Billanja Wrote:  - Dr. John





#sigh
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09-03-2017, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2017 11:12 AM by Billanja.)
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(09-03-2017 10:22 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(09-03-2017 10:07 AM)Billanja Wrote:  1.) Merkel is controlled by her rigid habit to fold her hands in a strange and un-natural way. At least that is for sure.

Rolleyes


Quote:2.) Real, actual democrats, definition (according to me): arguing for the agenda that every human being should have their basic needs met for free. Including basic and higher education.

Higher education is hardly a basic need. And it has nothing to do with democracy.


Quote:Only people who don't have to worry about survival, health and their community are free, willing and able to make accurate and well-informed deceicions on who should have what kind of positiion in a certain political system, which is in place to organize a community the way the members of that community want it to be organized.

Poland has free education and more or less working socialized health service yet I wouldn't call voters decisions accurate or well-informed.

Voters don't get well informed and resistant to populist rhetoric just because they have University diploma or they feel safe.


Quote:3.) What does "free elections" in the case of the USA even mean? Serious question..

Same thing that in other countries.

Quote:4.) I'm not a Putin fan. Nor am I a Putin opposer. I just think he knows some sh*t he wishes he wouldn't.

Not living in Russia I can't do much to oppose Putin. I just think that he is a clown.

Quote:Anarchie, eh? Wouldn't that mean being the next step AFTER (true, real) democracy is in place and well established everywhere?

I'm not anarchist. I just like that one Bakunin quote.



I still haven't figured out how to properly quote and re-quote so it looks all neat like your posts do. Please be patient. I'm still learning... And I don't want my comments to be bold, but I can't figure out how to undo it.

Would you be so kind and give me some advice how to quote like you do?

I'm sorry it looks so messy. Confused


1.) [b]You want me to elaborate on the rumours that ran around about Merkels and Helmut Kohl's relationship a few decades ago? [/b]

2.) It definitely has. Democracy is based on the premise that the members of such a society are well-informed about all kinds of issues and topics in order to make accurate choises on a political and social level.

3.) I'm not talking about having a university diploma. In nazi-germany in the 20. century a lot of people had diplomas. It's not about having a degree of some sort. It's about being actually and sufficiently informed about what really and actually is the case. What's so difficult to understand about my point?

4.) Yes. Because democracy, real and actual democracy and the capitalistic economical (global) system are incompatible. That my whole point.

5.) And I think Putin knows more than he can tell.

6.) Oh, I thought you were. I'm sorry you're not.
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09-03-2017, 10:58 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2017 11:57 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(09-03-2017 10:56 AM)Billanja Wrote:  I still haven't figured out how to properly quote and re-quote so it looks all neat like your posts do. Please be patient. I'm still learning... And I don't want my comments to be bold, but I can't figure out how to undo it.

Would you be so kind and give me some advice how to quote like you do?

I'm not good at explaining, so just look on mine and other posts and you will get it, as it is about using quote] and [/quote. As for bolding - try putting /b] somewhere in your post. Or just erase all [b and /b] that you will find in it.

Quote:1.)You want me to elaborate on the rumours that ran around about Merkels and Helmut Kohl's relationship a few decades ago?

I'm not really interested in rumors.

Quote:2.)It definitely has. Democracy is based on the premise that the members of such a society are well-informed about all kinds of issues and topics in order to make accurate choises on a political and social level.

Is it? Also to be well inormed about variety of topic pertaining to ruling modern country one would have learn every day. You can't force people to learn.

There is also all that shit about populist rhetoric, emotions and people voting against their interests.

Quote:3.) I'm not talking about having a university diploma. In nazi-germany in the 20. century a lot of people had diplomas. It's not about having a degree of some sort. It's about being actually and sufficiently informed about what really and actually is the case. What's so difficult to understand about my point?

More people didn't have diplomas so what exactly is your point? Sure, there were quite a few people with higher education in Einsatzgruppen but I don't see much relevance here.

What is your point? Cause to me it seems like some kind of fantasy. Average Joe will not be adequately informed about what's really the case as not everyone is interested in politics, sociology or economics.

Quote:4.) Yes. Because democracy, real and actual democracy and the capitalistic economical (global) system are incompatible. That my whole point.

I think that your real and actual democracy is nothing more than your dream.

Germany for example seems to be pretty democratic and capitalist.

Quote:5.) And I think Putin knows more than he can tell.

Possibly. But that does not mean he isn't authoritarian clown.

Quote:6.)Oh, I thought you were. I'm sorry you're not.

I'm not sorry.


I erased all [b and /b] from your post.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-03-2017, 11:35 AM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
My point is:

The capitalistic economical system that is in place almost all over the world, isn't compatible with real actual democracy. And here is why I think so.

1.) The ownership of huge amounts of property and resources by a relative small group of people isn't benefitting the communities and the people who live and work in the communities because they don't own the means of production and the places they live in. How can they be the rulers of their own destiny if that isn't case?

2.) Who and/or what has given the billionares/ultra-rich the right to claim to own huge amounts of property and resources? What have they, themselfs, done to call it their own?

3.) Who benefits from this kind of economical system? And who does not?

4.) Why is the time of a major share-holder (an ultra-rich person) so much more valued (monetarely) than the time of a super-market casher? How is that justified, philosophically?
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09-03-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(09-03-2017 11:35 AM)Billanja Wrote:  My point is:

The capitalistic economical system that is in place almost all over the world, isn't compatible with real actual democracy. And here is why I think so.

I see your real, actual democracy as nothing more than idealized construct, just like Martin Malia saw socialism thing that never was which is better than capitalism [Martin Malia, History's Locomotives: Revolutions and the Making of the Modern World].

Quote:1.) The ownership of huge amounts of property and resources by a relative small group of people isn't benefitting the communities and the people who live and work in the communities because they don't own the means of production and the places they live in. How can they be the rulers of their own destiny if that isn't case?

Marx put it better than you Wink

Seriously though what is your solution?

Quote:2.) Who and/or what has given the billionares/ultra-rich the right to claim to own huge amounts of property and resources? What have they, themselfs, done to call it their own?

State, which guarantee property rights.

They worked for it or inherited it. That is what they done to deserve it. You have no right to take their riches, though taxing them higher than average Joe's seem fine to me.

Quote:3.) Who benefits from this kind of economical system? And who does not?

Quite the number of people seems to be benefiting - look into USSR where exploitation of man by man was supposedly ended and then look to the west. Who had it better?

That's not to say that capitalism doesn't have it problems, nor it mean that ending with idea of welfare state was good.

Quote:4.) Why is the time of a major share-holder (an ultra-rich person) so much more valued (monetarely) than the time of a super-market casher? How is that justified, philosophically?

I don't care about philosophy but everyone can be cashier.

Maybe look into Wallerstein World-Systems Analysis: An Introduction, you may enjoy it. Though it looks like you prefer Piketty Capital in the Twenty-First Century.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-03-2017, 12:10 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
I think my questions haven't been answered to my satisfaction.

How comes seemingly intelligent and well-informed people still defend the capitalistic economical system although they don't have even a tiny little piece of the cake at their disposal?

THAT is what upsets me the most. If you're a billonare, fine. You defend your seeming right to claim ownership of what ever it is you seem to possess. But those who are defending them, the capitalistic major share-holders, but being themselfs far below the average ultra-rich in regard of what they claim as their own, THAT is what I call disgusting!

I guess it's clear who I'm adressing here.
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09-03-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
(09-03-2017 12:10 PM)Billanja Wrote:  I think my questions haven't been answered to my satisfaction.

I could say the same.

Quote:How comes seemingly intelligent and well-informed people still defend the capitalistic economical system although they don't have even a tiny little piece of the cake at their disposal?

Maybe because they're intelligent and well-informed plus they have at least little piece of the cake. One could also mention how life behind Iron Curtain looked like, or that capitalism could be good (not bad?) if regulated but I guess nuances are too much for you.

Quote:THAT is what upsets me the most. If you're a billonare, fine. You defend your seeming right to claim ownership of what ever it is you seem to possess. But those who are defending them, the capitalistic major share-holders, but being themselfs far below the average ultra-rich in regard of what they claim as their own, THAT is what I call disgusting!

Defending others right to property I call admirable. Not that rich needs my defence.

Respecting rich right to property does not mean that one is opposed to fair or "fair" taxes though. Nor it means that one is against notion that those who are successful should help others. Nothing disgusting in it.

Quote:I guess it's clear who I'm adressing here.

Who?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-03-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: Raised as an atheist, went all the way, back on the market-place again
Capitalism being good (or bad), when regulated? Lemmy get that straight.

Capitalism could or should, or couldn't and shouldn't be regulated? In order to reach/archive/get to what exactely?

If there is a conspiracy, not just in theory, but actually, it's the claim (by those who even remotely benefit from it) that the capitalistic economical system isn't that bad after all.

Like, "look! We have science and we life longer now and we can watch movies and such! Isn't that something?" As if that is an archievment of capitalism, and not something that happend despite of it and could not be avoided anyway..

Tell me more lies, please. Can't get enough of it.
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