Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
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28-07-2015, 09:14 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(28-07-2015 09:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  To some degree but that has been happening at an alarming rate for the last 30 years when top down economics has been in full employ. Trying to improve wages is not a death knell to any economy but continuing on as we are now is.
Yeah, well. Not being an American, I don't know much about your economic problems. I assume there are many issues that need attention.
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28-07-2015, 09:16 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(28-07-2015 08:51 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 08:45 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  He's been ugly in this thread, no doubt, but isn't addressing his points a better way of handling things?

No because it does absolutely no good with him. He neither has an understanding of the issue or the desire to gain one he just wants to fight on the internet and call people stupid liberals. Which is why most of the time I just ignore his posts as they have little to nothing of merit.

But for those of us who do more reading than talking on the issue, substantive replies are more helpful than broadsides. You may not change his mind, but you certainly have the option to influence others. Don't you think you squander that by going the low route with him?
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28-07-2015, 10:29 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(28-07-2015 10:46 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
[Image: c6d69ce4ca31f2532c3ecfc97bc01efc.png]

Taking the highest pay rate on that list, Chipotle's CEO makes over $13k/hr, but they also have 53k employees.
http://www.macroaxis.com/invest/ratio/CM...-Employees

Zeroing out the CEO's salary would free up about 25 cents per hour to give everyone else a raise. I suspect zeroing out the entire executive team of any of these companies would not come close to paying for the costs of a $15/hr minimum wage. I'm not saying executive pay isn't outrageous, but suggesting the pay gap causes hugely depressed wages for lower paid employees is just nonsense.
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28-07-2015, 10:38 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(28-07-2015 10:41 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 10:27 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Apparently it's the colloquial version of malingering....

Just more soft, imprecise language -- like "living wage" -- which means exactly "something more than minimum, but we're not exactly sure what"....In other words - diddly squat....

A Living Wage means one able to provide the basics of life ie shelter and food something the current minimum wage does not. You would know this if you had bothered to actually taken time to understand the issue.


The living wage is actually not as clear or straightforward as you suggest. Is the living wage defined as the wage one person needs to make to support a family? Or just themselves? Or is it the amount that two parents make to support a family? Frankly, this is one good reason that public assistance for the working poor (in the form of food, housing, healthcare assistance) does a better job at addressing the unequal needs of different people's living situation than a minimum wage (set at living wage) could do.
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29-07-2015, 02:01 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(28-07-2015 08:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 08:25 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except that never happens. Anywhere minimum wage is applied that result has never once been show to occur.
I work with offshore people all the time. We use them because their wages are much cheaper than local resource. I also work at automating functions. It generally goes into a business case, the cost of developing the automation vs the cost of ongoing labour, in order to justify the project they plan to let people go.
Have you ever been to poor countries? I've been to a few, seen people with jobs of opening and closing doors etc, seen people with very menial jobs that in developed countries would be automated. Over there they give people those jobs because wages are cheaper than automation.
How do you come to the conclusion that high wages doesn't equate to less job opportunities?

Human beings are going the way of the horse. Automation made the horses unemployable and it will make humans unemployable too. Minimum wage is just hastening the arrival of the day when most humans are unemployable.
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29-07-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 08:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I work with offshore people all the time. We use them because their wages are much cheaper than local resource. I also work at automating functions. It generally goes into a business case, the cost of developing the automation vs the cost of ongoing labour, in order to justify the project they plan to let people go.
Have you ever been to poor countries? I've been to a few, seen people with jobs of opening and closing doors etc, seen people with very menial jobs that in developed countries would be automated. Over there they give people those jobs because wages are cheaper than automation.
How do you come to the conclusion that high wages doesn't equate to less job opportunities?

Human beings are going the way of the horse. Automation made the horses unemployable and it will make humans unemployable too. Minimum wage is just hastening the arrival of the day when most humans are unemployable.

That's not proven out by history. In the late 1800's as sewing machines came into mass production - there was industry resistance - by seamstresses and tailors who felt that such machines would put them out of work.

We know the result -- more production, better quality and lower prices.

Automation will still require human operators. CNC machines don't run themselves - somebody still has to operate, diagnose problems and fix them. Those people just have higher degrees of training.

All automation does is take the drudgery out of repetitious tasks, and makes better products at cheaper prices.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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29-07-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(28-07-2015 08:45 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 08:36 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I am always short with people that do nothing but cause trouble. OLB is no different than any number of trolls that like to stir the shit he just has his fans that same as Taq did.

He's been ugly in this thread, no doubt, but isn't addressing his points a better way of handling things?

(28-07-2015 08:31 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 12:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  He can't, that would mean he would have to know what the fuck he was talking about something Onlinebiker has never show the ability to do.

That's harsh and uncalled for. For Pete's sake Rev...what's with you lately? You have become unpleasant and rather mean.


I think the point Rev is trying to make is that when directly replying to someone who is (or behaves like) a troll who presents nothing but ignorant straw men with no substantive contribution, the tone of the response will be based upon the attitude and actions of the troll.


There are indeed plenty of reasons to still have more substantive replies along the lines of the subject of the thread, but those already exist to OnlineBikingTroll and if someone wants to discuss those points, I'd doubt that you'd find any resistance. But more substantive replies to trolls who keep presenting straw man after straw man, is kind of pointless.

I don't about Rev's experience, but it isn't like this is the first time that OnlineBikingTroll has made it clear they have no interest in intelligent conversation (http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-argument)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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29-07-2015, 08:40 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
In the interest of fairness -

Let's say a company starts all new employees at $11 an hour, with annual or semi-annual raises. There are employees who have been with the company for several years, and are already making $15 an hour or more. Then comes a government mandate to pay all employees at least $15 an hour. What happens to the wages of those tenured employees? Do they stay the same as the guy who just walked in the door yesterday?
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29-07-2015, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2015 08:57 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 08:40 AM)TheBear Wrote:  In the interest of fairness -

Let's say a company starts all new employees at $11 an hour, with annual or semi-annual raises. There are employees who have been with the company for several years, and are already making $15 an hour or more. Then comes a government mandate to pay all employees at least $15 an hour. What happens to the wages of those tenured employees? Do they stay the same as the guy who just walked in the door yesterday?

Sounds like something a Union could help with negotiating an appropriate wage based on experience.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 08:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 08:40 AM)TheBear Wrote:  In the interest of fairness -

Let's say a company starts all new employees at $11 an hour, with annual or semi-annual raises. There are employees who have been with the company for several years, and are already making $15 an hour or more. Then comes a government mandate to pay all employees at least $15 an hour. What happens to the wages of those tenured employees? Do they stay the same as the guy who just walked in the door yesterday?

Sounds like something a Union could help with for negotiating an appropriate wage based on experience.

Forget about unions, because most employers are not union. Forget about "based on experience", because the minimum wage mandate is not based on experience. In a general sense of fairness, and in maintaining a level of good morale among co-workers, (employee retention too), what would you do if you were in charge of wages? The person who was hired 3 weeks ago started at $11 an hour. Since then, the mandate kicks in and they get a 36% pay raise, not based on experience. What would you do?
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