Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
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29-07-2015, 09:13 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 08:40 AM)TheBear Wrote:  In the interest of fairness -

Let's say a company starts all new employees at $11 an hour, with annual or semi-annual raises. There are employees who have been with the company for several years, and are already making $15 an hour or more. Then comes a government mandate to pay all employees at least $15 an hour. What happens to the wages of those tenured employees? Do they stay the same as the guy who just walked in the door yesterday?

That's exactly what's happening with Walmart's much-ballyhooed across-the-board pay raises. An ex-girlfriend is a department manager there making pennies an hour more than a brand-new associate.
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29-07-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 09:13 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 08:40 AM)TheBear Wrote:  In the interest of fairness -

Let's say a company starts all new employees at $11 an hour, with annual or semi-annual raises. There are employees who have been with the company for several years, and are already making $15 an hour or more. Then comes a government mandate to pay all employees at least $15 an hour. What happens to the wages of those tenured employees? Do they stay the same as the guy who just walked in the door yesterday?

That's exactly what's happening with Walmart's much-ballyhooed across-the-board pay raises. An ex-girlfriend is a department manager there making pennies an hour more than a brand-new associate.

This is why unions are important.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-07-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 09:10 AM)TheBear Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 08:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Sounds like something a Union could help with for negotiating an appropriate wage based on experience.

Forget about unions, because most employers are not union. Forget about "based on experience", because the minimum wage mandate is not based on experience. In a general sense of fairness, and in maintaining a level of good morale among co-workers, (employee retention too), what would you do if you were in charge of wages? The person who was hired 3 weeks ago started at $11 an hour. Since then, the mandate kicks in and they get a 36% pay raise, not based on experience. What would you do?

1) When is the world ever fair?

2) I'd based it on experience if that is what you're asking.

3) I recognize the minimum wage isn't based on experience, it's based on making corporations foot the bill for their employees being paid fair wages.

4) These minimum wage increases area all proposed to happen over time, not immediately. So this idea of it "screwing" over the guy who is now making the same wage as the person hired "3 weeks ago" is a straw man.

5) I'd pay my veteran employees what they are worth too. In a world of record breaking corporate profits, they can absolutely afford to pay their employees more. That same old tired argument has been used by corporations as long as their have been corporations.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
And yes, agreeing with Rev, this is why unions are important. If you are a senior employee in a job who is making $15 an hour and in 5 years the minimum waged employees will be at the same pay rate, the union can negotiate for you a similar pay increase over the same time frame.

If you are on your own, then you are on your own.

But this is a shit argument against making the minimum closer to a living wage because it basically boils down to "I want to make more money than them, so pay them less." That is a greedy and shitty argument.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 09:16 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is why unions are important.

And what would you like the unions to accomplish, regarding the pay of tenured employees making $15 an hour, and now, brand new employees are making $15 an hour? What do you think would be fair and equitable for employees who have been loyal to the company for years?
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29-07-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 09:55 AM)TheBear Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:16 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is why unions are important.

And what would you like the unions to accomplish, regarding the pay of tenured employees making $15 an hour, and now, brand new employees are making $15 an hour? What do you think would be fair and equitable for employees who have been loyal to the company for years?

Wage increase that corresponds to the same time frame over which the minimum wage is increasing.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 09:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:55 AM)TheBear Wrote:  And what would you like the unions to accomplish, regarding the pay of tenured employees making $15 an hour, and now, brand new employees are making $15 an hour? What do you think would be fair and equitable for employees who have been loyal to the company for years?

Wage increase that corresponds to the same time frame over which the minimum wage is increasing.

Exactly.

What I'm pointing out is the ripple effect of mandatory minimum wage increases. It doesn't just affect new hire wages. It affects the wages of everyone in the company. If not, morale plummets and employee turnover rate skyrockets, especially those who have been with the company for some time.
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29-07-2015, 10:10 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 10:07 AM)TheBear Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Wage increase that corresponds to the same time frame over which the minimum wage is increasing.

Exactly.

What I'm pointing out is the ripple effect of mandatory minimum wage increases. It doesn't just affect new hire wages. It affects the wages of everyone in the company. If not, morale plummets and employee turnover rate skyrockets, especially those who have been with the company for some time.

and that forces veteran pay up. It is incredibly expensive to replace people with 5-10 years experience so if they have no pressure to stay in a job that obviously does not value them, by keeping their pay stagnant while new hire pay is increased to their level, they no longer have an incentive not to leave. If you can go anywhere and make the same money you hold way more leverage if you have skills that are in demand.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-07-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 10:10 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 10:07 AM)TheBear Wrote:  Exactly.

What I'm pointing out is the ripple effect of mandatory minimum wage increases. It doesn't just affect new hire wages. It affects the wages of everyone in the company. If not, morale plummets and employee turnover rate skyrockets, especially those who have been with the company for some time.

and that forces veteran pay up. It is incredibly expensive to replace people with 5-10 years experience so if they have no pressure to stay in a job that obviously does not value them, by keeping their pay stagnant while new hire pay is increased to their level, they no longer have an incentive not to leave. If you can go anywhere and make the same money you hold way more leverage if you have skills that are in demand.

BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Are you fucking SERIOUS???

WHat do you think this is??? 1988 -- when you could go get a job the same day - for more money????

My SO is currently working - in a job with stagnant wages -- and she's been looking for work for 2 YEARS -- and the only shit she has been offered is entry level positions at not much over minimum wage -- which makes her degree just about worthless.....

There's MILLIONS of jobs out there all right --- All paying minimum wage.....

With no benefits.....

GO out of your union supported (tenured?) position - and check out the real fucking world before you go yammering your trap.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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29-07-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 10:07 AM)TheBear Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Wage increase that corresponds to the same time frame over which the minimum wage is increasing.

Exactly.

What I'm pointing out is the ripple effect of mandatory minimum wage increases. It doesn't just affect new hire wages. It affects the wages of everyone in the company. If not, morale plummets and employee turnover rate skyrockets, especially those who have been with the company for some time.

The slippery slope fallacy hasn't panned out whenever that has actually occurred with wage increased in the US.

When the first minimum wage was implemented that nearly doubled the base pay, corporations made the same sorts of claims about going bankrupt and employees leaving, etc, etc. And that didn't happen.

The fear mongering that it will all collapse because corporations have to start paying the base employees and the experienced employees more money is not useful.

The Republicans should love this idea, because it is basically trickle down economics, except it is less of a trickle and more of a requirement to not make your employees little more than slaves when you pay them so little that they still qualify for food stamps (meaning the average taxpayer actually subsidizes the salary of these low wage employees for the corporations. True corporate welfare).

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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